Comments on: FIGHT! Toth vs Rude — now with Rude response http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/ The News Blog of Comics Culture Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:08:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: drmedula http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-2187373 Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:14:38 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-2187373 Yes, Toth was a hell of an artist, and many of his criticisms are perceptive and valid. But here's the REAL bottom line: Steve Rude has dedicated his career to making the best comics (and illustrations) he could- he never truly compromised his talent or vision. Toth spent the best years of his life hacking out material he damn well knew was crap for the Hanna-Barbera meatgrinder (and the fact he would occasionally turn out a good comics job on the side just proves what a waste of talent it was).And I'm sure his fans will argue he did the best he could inside "the system"- but the "system" didn't stop guys like Bruce Timm or Ralph Bakshi (an inferior cartoonist to Toth in every way, but what risks he took!)Toth's rallying cry to his fellow artists to "keep growing" is quite stirring- it's truly tragic he didn't really listen to himself... Yes, Toth was a hell of an artist, and many of his criticisms are perceptive and valid. But here’s the REAL bottom line: Steve Rude has dedicated his career to making the best comics (and illustrations) he could- he never truly compromised his talent or vision. Toth spent the best years of his life hacking out material he damn well knew was crap for the Hanna-Barbera meatgrinder (and the fact he would occasionally turn out a good comics job on the side just proves what a waste of talent it was).And I’m sure his fans will argue he did the best he could inside “the system”- but the “system” didn’t stop guys like Bruce Timm or Ralph Bakshi (an inferior cartoonist to Toth in every way, but what risks he took!)Toth’s rallying cry to his fellow artists to “keep growing” is quite stirring- it’s truly tragic he didn’t really listen to himself…

]]> by: Ed Binn http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1976102 Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:36:25 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1976102 Toth had to be deranged-how did an uptight guy like him live so long? Either a heart attack or someone shooting him are likely scenarios. I would like to know how Vince Colletta (a pretty tough guy) kept from beating the crap out of him after Toth complained about, what I thought, were very competent inks on the Hot Wheels comics? Toth had to be deranged-how did an uptight guy like him live so long? Either a heart attack or someone shooting him are likely scenarios. I would like to know how Vince Colletta (a pretty tough guy) kept from beating the crap out of him after Toth complained about, what I thought, were very competent inks on the Hot Wheels comics?

]]> by: Kauser Ali http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1935655 Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:47:08 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1935655 I think Toth had some good points in his criticism. I'm glad Rude responded with graciousness, defending what he felt was right and accepting the flaws. I have to say, Djurdjevic is spot on in his storytelling and anatomy. His lighting is something I enjoy as well. Neal Adams is known for similar harsh critiques. I'm going to say that while these sort of critiques would be hard for any artist to sit through they are vitally important in polishing our skill set. If we are to become better drafstmen we must see through another's eyes our own shortcomings. I think Toth had some good points in his criticism. I’m glad Rude responded with graciousness, defending what he felt was right and accepting the flaws.

I have to say, Djurdjevic is spot on in his storytelling and anatomy. His lighting is something I enjoy as well.

Neal Adams is known for similar harsh critiques.

I’m going to say that while these sort of critiques would be hard for any artist to sit through they are vitally important in polishing our skill set. If we are to become better drafstmen we must see through another’s eyes our own shortcomings.

]]> by: Bhanu http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1853629 Tue, 01 Jul 2008 06:29:34 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1853629 Djurdjevic not as good as he thinks???? What the hell, hes great in all apartments of storytelling be it just through concepts or through cover art of sequentials. Anyways...TOths critique are wonderful read....insightful ,. Djurdjevic not as good as he thinks????
What the hell, hes great in all apartments of storytelling be it just through concepts or through cover art of sequentials. Anyways…TOths critique are wonderful read….insightful ,.

]]> by: Dave http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1608025 Thu, 22 May 2008 01:38:46 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-1608025 The problem is, Djurdjevic is not as good as he thinks he is. With Toth, it is a different matter. The problem is, Djurdjevic is not as good as he thinks he is. With Toth, it is a different matter.

]]> by: Justin http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-23744 Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:20:42 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-23744 You guys should meet Mr. Marko Djurdjevic. He will shoot you down so fast, and with just as much- if not more ferocity than Toth-your head will spin. If it was legal I swear he would start swingin' for the fences. But it's a wake-up call. You guys should meet Mr. Marko Djurdjevic. He will shoot you down so fast, and with just as much- if not more ferocity than Toth-your head will spin. If it was legal I swear he would start swingin’ for the fences.

But it’s a wake-up call.

]]> by: Norm Breyfogle http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7427 Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:39:20 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7427 Although I'm a big fan of Toth's work, I'm not a fan of his well-known rudeness (no pun intented). Although I’m a big fan of Toth’s work, I’m not a fan of his well-known rudeness (no pun intented).

]]> by: Dwight Williams http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7248 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:05:27 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7248 Tom: Good points, those! Cameron: Now that you've pointed that passage out to me, I see how the laughter's apropos! Tom: Good points, those!

Cameron: Now that you’ve pointed that passage out to me, I see how the laughter’s apropos!

]]> by: tom floyd http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7225 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 18:47:39 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-7225 It isn't just the 'history' of comics this crit pertains too, it is the process and act of storytelling. I think all 'artists' should read and heed the words of Alex Toth. Maybe he was a bit hotheaded at the crit, but the basis of what he is saying is true. Staging, storytelling, getting the story across to the reader - is all of what us artists want to do. This are some great guidelines for learning. Not that any of use are every going to be perfect - but they are words to heed and learn from, especially the summation pages about art and being an artist - and thinking. It isn’t just the ‘history’ of comics this crit pertains too, it is the process and act of storytelling. I think all ‘artists’ should read and heed the words of Alex Toth. Maybe he was a bit hotheaded at the crit, but the basis of what he is saying is true. Staging, storytelling, getting the story across to the reader - is all of what us artists want to do. This are some great guidelines for learning. Not that any of use are every going to be perfect - but they are words to heed and learn from, especially the summation pages about art and being an artist - and thinking.

]]> by: Pete Bangs http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5835 Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:03:31 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5835 Anyone at all familiar with the late Mr Toth will know how passionate he was about the art of comics and that he could have a fairly narrow view on how things should be done. This is very much in keeping with Mr Toth's style and it's great that Steve Rude could look at it objectively and take some lessons from it. Anyone at all familiar with the late Mr Toth will know how passionate he was about the art of comics and that he could have a fairly narrow view on how things should be done. This is very much in keeping with Mr Toth’s style and it’s great that Steve Rude could look at it objectively and take some lessons from it.

]]> by: Cameron Stewart http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5554 Sat, 23 Sep 2006 03:04:55 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5554 " Since my story was basically a continuation of what Doug had done in the first half of the book, Doug had already done the introduction shots of all the regulars, though Alex wasn’t aware of this context. ( I informed Alex of this, but he just got more mad.) " That last bit made me laugh out loud. ” Since my story was basically a continuation of what Doug had done in the first half of the book, Doug had already done the introduction shots of all the regulars, though Alex wasn’t aware of this context. ( I informed Alex of this, but he just got more mad.) ”

That last bit made me laugh out loud.

]]> by: lauren http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5538 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:40:35 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5538 I thoughtit was interesting to see 2 comics professionals interact in a critique format. From reading the text Toth wrote, it seems as if he was trying to provide his experience and perspective in a no holds barred fashion. Steve Rude responeded by defending the choices he thought were correct and admitting the mistakes. We can all learn from this expereince that being gracious when criticism is offered is the high road. This applies to all of life and not just art. I thoughtit was interesting to see 2 comics professionals interact in a critique format.

From reading the text Toth wrote, it seems as if he was trying to provide his experience and perspective in a no holds barred fashion. Steve Rude responeded by defending the choices he thought were correct and admitting the mistakes.

We can all learn from this expereince that being gracious when criticism is offered is the high road. This applies to all of life and not just art.

]]> by: Chris Rice http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5531 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:42:35 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5531 Well, that's why we read Heidi McDonald's Beat, not Jonathan's Beat. You don't have to be interested in every story that Heidi writes, and you obviously have little interest in the history of comics, which is fair enough. However, I suspect there are a few more people on the site who give a rats ass about the story, than your opinion of it. Might I suggest that the Wizard site might be a little more your speed... Well, that’s why we read Heidi McDonald’s Beat, not Jonathan’s Beat.
You don’t have to be interested in every story that Heidi writes, and you obviously have little interest in the history of comics, which is fair enough. However, I suspect there are a few more people on the site who give a rats ass about the story, than your opinion of it.
Might I suggest that the Wizard site might be a little more your speed…

]]> by: Mark S. Tague http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5530 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:29:08 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5530 I read this article fascinated by the detail to which one legend, Mr. Toth, the Rude artwork and the gracious defense made by Rude(a legend just beginning), while willingly admitting to some bad choices. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a younger artist continuing a story left off by Doug Wildey, himself a legend and then receiving such harsh criticism and rude phone behavior from a much admired older comic aristt legend. In reading Mr. Rude's account I don't get the idea that he truly understood where the vehemence of Mr. Toth scathing criticism came from. I have loved both men's work ever since I first encoumtered them. But worse than Mr. Toth's rudeness was the thoughtless and jaring replies left by yep and Jonathan. Both these post were ignorant, shallow and did nothing to illuminate the subject at hand. I read this article fascinated by the detail to which one legend, Mr. Toth, the Rude artwork and the gracious defense made by Rude(a legend just beginning), while willingly admitting to some bad choices. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be a younger artist continuing a story left off by Doug Wildey, himself a legend and then receiving such harsh criticism and rude phone behavior from a much admired older comic aristt legend. In reading Mr. Rude’s account I don’t get the idea that he truly understood where the vehemence of Mr. Toth scathing criticism came from. I have loved both men’s work ever since I first encoumtered them.
But worse than Mr. Toth’s rudeness was the thoughtless and jaring replies left by yep and Jonathan. Both these post were ignorant, shallow and did nothing to illuminate the subject at hand.

]]> by: Tom Crippen http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5526 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:31:15 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5526 Well, someone besides Rude and the late Toth cares about this, since they aren't the ones passing the thing around the Internet. Well, someone besides Rude and the late Toth cares about this, since they aren’t the ones passing the thing around the Internet.

]]> by: el tio berni http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5525 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:30:56 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5525 "Funny to watch two people complaining about something no one else is interested in" ... and what the *%$& are you doing reading this blog if you're not interested in comics? Just curious... “Funny to watch two people complaining about something no one else is interested in”

… and what the *%$& are you doing reading this blog if you’re not interested in comics? Just curious…

]]> by: Jonathan http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5518 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:02:57 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5518 Legends, shmegends. I don't give a rat's about a Johnny Quest comic's illustration from umpteen years ago. Legends, shmegends. I don’t give a rat’s about a Johnny Quest comic’s illustration from umpteen years ago.

]]> by: Brian Spence http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5504 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:13:01 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5504 I care. Those guys are legends, IMO. I care. Those guys are legends, IMO.

]]> by: yep http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5500 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:59:41 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/09/22/fight-toth-vs-rude-now-with-rude-response/#comment-5500 Funny to watch two people complaining about something no one else is interested in. Funny to watch two people complaining about something no one else is interested in.

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