THE BEAT » Blog Archive » But the kids DO like it!…

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I think it’s odd that people with much different tastes should be expected to pal it up simply because they read stories that are done in a common medium. This is such a clubhouse mentality, and I think it’s one that keeps comics a niche industry. It creates a perception that even if your story is one that can have a more culturally mainstream or literary audience, because it is done in comic format, it somehow must be associated with superhero comics, which dominate the medium. Usually this association comes as being defined as “the Other” rather than being an independent entity, which is ironic to say the least.

I mean, thank goodness that isn’t so. Why should an artist like, say, Alison Bechdel be expected to make nice with the cape-and-cowl crowd when they’re not her audience? Why should there be any emphasis on converting superhero readers to indie readers or vice versa? Personally, I wish that indie comics and literary comics (please note that I use “literary” not as an adjective of quality but of genre) could be free of the shadow of superhero comics and allowed to blaze a trail on their own merits, without the constant disclaimer that, “Hey, this comic ain’t about superheroes!” Thankfully, that is happening more and more. Perhaps someday we’ll have a market like the prose fiction market, where readers of thrillers and classics and new literary fiction and romances, etc. go about reading the books they like and don’t feel particularly compelled to think about each other if they don’t want to.

Sure, there is always crossover, with indie comics that play with conventions of superhero comics and superhero comics that experiment with the sensibility of indie comics. I think that’s healthy and hopeful for the industry. But comics readers and artists should not feel compelled to do it.

I also had several collections of Peanuts comics that were favorites. After that, it was the standard drug for women of my generation who are into comics: Sandman.

What held the industry back was a) stores not carrying indie stuff, and 2) not putting more of a variety into books like DHP. I miss that book.

As far as what got me into comics in the first place? That would be Star Wars. Which led into Transformers/GI Joe, and the Transformers issue with Spider-man got me into Spidey. From there, I fell in deep with comics.

That is What Civil War sells. Or Sold.

And yes, there is a genuine audience for the big crossover event. It seems to me that the weakness is that during these events, there are few mainstreamy superhero books for those who aren’t that audience. Everything gets ties up in these tales, which can be off-putting to those who just want to follow the character they’ve been grooving on.

I think you may be right though, that those who seek out the stuff beyond what’s easily available have a tendency to feel as if they are elite, as if they are better lovers of the medium - evidenced, of course, by the fact that they seek out that which is beyond the easily accessible. I’d imagine that if you visited a Techno Music Appreciation Club and, when asked who your favourite artist was, responded that you really loved Moby’s Play - I’d imagine your credibility in that crowd would be ho-hummed.

And I think that in some respect, they would be right to diminish your credibility - if all you had ever heard was Moby, some Apollo 440, and that Fat Boy Someone or Other. Though Moby is great and you might have FANTASTIC reasons for adoring his work, it will be hard for you not to seem ignorant if you are, in fact, ignorant of what else is out there. I think this is probably why a lot of indie-lovers may poo-poo the opinion of those who do not stray outside the boundaries of Marvel/DC fare.

Again, I’m basing all this not so much on any observable reality (as I don’t really know any comic readers), but simply upon my own trajectory as a reader. I began with superheroes (Power Pack, X-Men, Micronauts, and GI Joe) and gradually filtered in more and more diverse reading experiences (European books, independent fare, and finally Asian books). I still read superheroes. Walt Simonson’s Thor is still amazing to me and I loved Bendis’s run on Daredevil more than is probably reasonable. But I have this whole other bucket full of comic experience to inform my superhero comic experience.

And I think, if I had to guess, that is where the snobbery may come in. Readers of indie stuff, more than likely, have read piles of superhero stuff as well as the indie stuff they’ve grown to prefer. Most people who prefer superheroes may not really have that much experience with what all’s out there. Therefore, it may not be so much a matter of the indie-snob vs. the mainstream non-snob, but simply the well-read vs. the not-so-well-read. Just a guess. And of course, a huge generalization.

That said, I read it all. Superheroes. Indie drama. Non-fiction. Manga. Eurocomics. So long as the book does a good job keeping me interested, I’ll enjoy it. I probably read less superhero stuff now than I did when I was in highschool - but that’s more a matter of a limited budget to spend on comics than any statement of what’s “better.”

That X-Men cartoon is the main reason the X-Men movie did as well as it did.

Since you asked: http://lilrivkah.livejournal.com/214405.html

And in a nutshell: “Garfield, Calvin & Hobbs, Sailor Moon”

Indie Fans and Capes fans should find ways to get along and cross mingle.

But because of the snobbishness i so often encounter on the part of the Indie-only fans i don’t trust thier recommendations.

Thus my indie recomendations come only from Warren Ellis or Heidi, becuase I trust them and they’re usually not snobbish.

It is somewhat outlandish and presumptious to assume non-super hero stuff is better than super-hero stuff and that you must ‘graduate’ upwards to the greener grass side of people not in tights.

Well, at this point I should clarify that it was not my intent to make it sound like that’s the progression everybody is supposed to make, nor that indie books are necessarily better than their capes-and-tights brethren. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with reading comics just to get your monthly dose of superheroes — I know people who only listen to pop music, or only read mysteries, or only watch comedy movies, and although I wouldn’t want to limit myself like that, I don’t begrudge people who do.

Like Edward Liu, I read and enjoy both, and believe there’s a bit of a false dichotomy setup in the superhero vs. non-superhero camps. Of course, I also believe that people have the right to read what they want to read, and I’m against guilting anyone with accusations of “killing comics” or whatever for not picking up Nat Turner. A good chunk of Direct Market readers aren’t comics fans, they’re genre fans, and if not they’re not buying X-Men, they’re not — necessarily — going to pick up a copy of Love and Rockets to compensate.

Leading into…

Richard J. Marcej

But couldn’t that also be said of the super hero mainstream fans who look down their nose at a B&W book or one not depicting fights and deaths of men in tights?

And since the majority of Comic Shops are run by those who only read superhero books, they only cater to the superhero crowd. Isn’t that sort of a “snobbish attitude, insulting and annoying towards potential customers who wish to try something else?

Well, this may get me in trouble with some folks, but I don’t believe this is really the case. I think you’re far more likely to find an attitude of snobbishness on the part of indie fans directed at superhero fans the other way around.

Why? Because most capes-and-tights fans don’t regard underground or black and white books with snobbishness per se, but simple apathy. They’re just not interested. I don’t think it’s so much them turning their nose up as just not having that kind of taste, which is something different entirely. Some of them do, sure, but for the most part I don’t think things work that way.

Now, with non-superhero readers, I think you’re much more likely to find genuine snobbishness, of the “why are you reading that tripe instead of *insert praised title here*?”. Similarly, I don’t think your average Dean Koontz reader is turning their nose up at Tolstoy, it’s just not their thing. But do Tolstoy readers sometimes regard Koontz readers with elitism? Sure, I think so. Maybe they’re entitled, maybe they’re not — the point about hierarchies of taste is valid — but there it is.

And hopefully I didn’t offend any Koontz or Tolstoy fans — they were the first two authors to come to mind.

DING! DING! DING!

I don’t know why it should be a newsflash that there are new and younger readers picking up comics. There are still companies that make buggy whips and people who buy them. But looking at the books out now, even compared to the “dark ages” of the mid 90s, I’m not sure how many people are really going to be brought into the medium by this stuff.

Mike

I still read the mainstream and I still like it and I wish it were a little broader (check out the new HULK-POWER PACK! Gotta love it) for the age range, but I think we’re doing okay. I think people will keep finding us. I like the events. Though I echo Whedon that it’s nice when comic characters are kind of all doing their own thing, too. It will slow down one of these days, and the events are doing great things sales-wise (I think Civil War was very well executed).

I really wound down my comics involvement during one of the Infinities. I think I made it through Infinity Gauntlet but then there was the Infinity Whatsit and the Infinity Whosit, and I missed out on all those. That’s kind of where comics became a much less significant part of my life for a while. Where is Adam Warlock these days, incidentally?

Now that I’m working near a comics shop again, I’m into comics full boar, once more. Lovin’ it.

These days he’s more interested in collecting statues based on the characters he read as a kid than he is in keeping up with CIVIL WAR. And he has a son who is about 13, and his son is peripherally aware of comics, but he’d rather play a SPIDER-MAN video game than read the comic it’s based on. But - I got my nephew a copy of the first NARUTO for xmas last year, and the kid LOVED it. And it’s not complicated why - it’s a fun little book that tells a whole story.

And speaking of Joss - I picked up the first ASTONISHING X-MEN trade for cheap at WonderCon this weekend. Now, I dug Morrison’s NEW X-MEN run - but in retrospect, it might have been in a “I am now enjoying this comic book” kind of way. With ASTONISHING - I couldn’t put it down. It was fun to look at and fun to read, the way I don’t remember an X-MEN book being since I was eating pizza rolls with my brother. But I’m pretty sure there’s just as much nostalgia-done-well in that feeling as there is Joss and John’s storytelling abilities. ASTONISHING is a good mix of the two, but from my nephew’s point of view, NARUTO probably trumps it.

WOW! Where can I get this comic?!

I was making all my comments above, not reflecting what’s covered or said on the internet, but what are sold and available at comicshops. Backing up my statement that indies will be squeezed out of shops by the time the young reader of today gets into his 20’s.

If you judged the comic readers entirely on what are sold and available at comic shops in the USA (I can’t say for Canada or UK) then you would think that indies, manga, etc… never existed. (and believe me, I’ve spent a lot of time in the last six months checking out the shops of USA to come to that conclusion. Much to my dismay.)

Yes, I completely agree. Both sides do this.

But I guess the Indie scene is in more need of sales and friends in comic shop owners which is why i phrased my theory as such.

And I think ‘The Dane’s assumptoin of heirarchy illustrates my point well. It’s all semantics and tastes and to assume that either is better or more mature or particualrly to assume that the audience is better or more mature is wrong and damaging to both sides.

The idea that people don’t read both indies and superhero comics is another of those chestnuts of conventional Internet wisdom that I don’t think I buy into entirely. There are overheated superhero fanboys who don’t read anything not published by Marvel or DC, just as there are stereotypical indie snobs who will read anything BUT what’s published by Marvel or DC, or manga fans who won’t touch anything that’s not printed right-to-left. However, I also think these polar extremes are over-represented on the comics Internet. There aren’t many people willing to talk about TV shows or music in any great depth — see the discussion about “Spider-Man: Reign” that Heidi quotes in this blog entry. Boil that down to people willing to set up blogs or join and participate in web forums and it’s no surprise that the most obsessed points of view are the ones that get the most air time.

The Internet is not the mainstream. If it were, “Snakes on a Plane” and “Serenity” would have been blockbusters and Howard Dean would be the President. Attempting to apply the Internet as a representative cross-section of the public at large or even just the people who read comic books is a dangerous thing to do. I’m another genre-agnostic comics reader who will read just about anything, but I’ve known lots of other superhero fans who also read indies or manga (or any other scrambling of those 3 pseudo-genres).

Then again, most of the comic shops I frequent are also the anecdotal 20% that orders most of the stuff outside of the Marvel/DC section of Previews, so I admit that my perception may well be badly skewed as well.

This is not to say that one is inherently better than the other. More that certain things are accessible to those with less mature sensibilities (and so are more widely accessible, for even those of mature sensibilities can appreciate, enjoy, and love the wider appeal stuff—this is why something like 300 will be popular).

So while it may be outlandish to presume the hierarchy, the presumption is not without precedent.

As to super heroes - I get lots of comp copies from various publishers because of my reviewing work, which means I get lots of deliveries from the various freight carriers. One day a DHL Express driver came to the house with a package from DC Comics for me; he looked to be in his mid-20s. He asked why I was getting so much stuff from them, and thought it was cool when I told him what I do. Then he showed me his right hand, and he had the Green Lantern ring tattooed onto his ring finger. I cried out, “Green Lantern!” Turns out he’s a comics reader and fan especially of GL - enough to have the ring tattooed onto his own hand. So - yeah, there are young fans of super hero comics out there, too.