Reading the latest on DC’s sales results at the Beat blog, I came across another reader comment well worth considering…

As for the term ‘Babymen,’ it’s a term that artist Mike Manley came up with to describe the adult nerds who still live at home in the basement and rush into the comic shops each week to get their ‘Gem Mint 10′ copies of Infinite Civil Crisis War of the 52 issues of dogshit, while they stroke themselves to Jim Lee, and like to art direct a commission in artist alley of Wolverine and make sure that every hair on Wolverine’s nut sack is in place, while they argue over who’s stronger: Superman or the Hulk?

Pretty much says it all to me. These guys are at every show and usually need a bath. Why is it that some comics fans don’t bath? Is that to keep the Skrulls away? I know it keeps the women away…Haha

And to Brett Tolino, your last entry was well written. Good job. I agree with it.

Scott

‘It doesn’t’.

So you’re just typing because you like the ’sound’ of your own voice, eh?

It doesn’t.

Civil War got a TERRIBLE response from the “Online Community” yet it was still an unquestionable blockbuster. Annihilation and Planet Hulk were viewed as Marvel’s saving graces at the time, but neither sold a fraction of some of the Civil War *tie-ins.*

The “Online Community” is a niche within a niche within a niche, to believe we are something more is an especially pathetic breed of arrogance.

White male bias?

Babymen? What the hell does that mean?

Sadly, even the long time fans can’t make heads or tales of the storyline going on in Countdown… and believe me, I tried. Between that and the 52 new earths, you need a road map just to read the solicitations, much less the comics themselves. I don’t know how a new reader would feel…

So not only is DC spreading ill will like an std, they’re being dopes about it too. Their top named creators don’t deliver. They ship stories out of order. Some of their books have so many chunks of art teams (some so amateurish, it actually compliments the fan fict they print) on one issue, reading the book is like staring at a pile of upchuck… each chunk contributes to the greater stink of the whole. The killing, maiming and outright charater raping and replacing. Should I go on? I could…

DC is no stranger to public distaste.

Before 1980, DC had created such a stench for themselves, everyone used to say ‘DC Comics Stink.’ That perception alone helped raise Marvel sales and perception, aside from the fact that Marvel was publishing some great books at the time. So, DC had three things against them: the public thought DC stunk, they actually published books that stunk (not held in the highest regards) ‘and’ feeding that perception helped their own competition’s sales.

Ironically, it took Marv Wolfman and George Perez’s New Teen Titans to begin washing away the stench. Even then, DC had a difficult time with reader’s perception. They even began marketing new titles ‘Because YOU Demanded it.

For DC to act today with such contempt for their customers they actually went out in public and stated ‘What the Online Community thinks does not matter’, it shows the level of intelligence their leader is operating on.

You don’t have to be in business to know, you don’t gain customers by insulting them.

The customers themselves knew what a disregard DC had to them when they consistently ignored their comments, requests and instead, went on killing spree of all their favorite characters. And don’t tell Dan Didio or any of his fans he’s done wrong. No, this guy who is so smart, he spilled the ending of 52 in a DC Nation column before the comic was anywhere near the ending.

We know why he did it though, he had to show everyone how smart he is and that no one knows better, especially not the reader. Of course, this couldn’t be the same readers from the online community whose opinions one of his editors asked ‘How can we get our monthly books back on schedule’ in a DC Nation Column. That wasn’t the EIC because we know, the EIC thinks the online ‘readers’ don’t matter. So only people who don’t use a computer should respond to that question.

You know, this is the same DC Nation that pictured his mug grinning like a cheshire cat with a mustache so badly in need of trim… he looked like he was eating it. Some people may say that’s not nice but you know what, if you don’t want people commenting on your picture, don’t put it in the back of every single comic you publish. If anyone’s going to be pictured, it should be the creative team working on the book. Rare did Stan Lee ever picture his face in the Bullpen Bulletins. Neither did many other EICs whose body of work was far more deserving than Didios (ego). I believe Dick Giordano did it once, when quite a few books were winning eagle awards for the groundbreaking comics they were publishing like New Teen Titans, Watchmen and Dark Knight.

Yes, he was pictured because he was the EIC to get rid of the prior perception of ‘DC Stinks’. Some considered that an impossible task so if you ask me, Giordano’s influence was winning sales and awards so yeah, put his picture in there for the month.

I guess that perception was so long ago, DC must have forgot so they’ve rebuilt that machine and many people are once again saying, ‘DC Stinks’.

How long will this last?

Is there a Marv Wolfman and George Perez New Teen Titans in the house?

Wait, you mean there’s almost 80 pages of an unpublished graphic novel sitting in house? No one wants that, who needs something half complete? It wouldn’t be late so it doesn’t fit their current criteria. Besides, Dan Didio has something better in the pipe, it’s called Titans East. The east coast branch, you know, the one between New York and… New Jersey. I know some people think the all that ‘industry’ in New Jersey stinks but…

Well, you know.

I was typing fast on it when I wrote it and I think most people meant what I said but here it is as I meant it.

“Bone is great example of how poor sales are for it in actual comic shops. The ONLY reason Bone is selling past the two-million mark is because it’s put out globally by Scholastic (A real publisher) and not under Image or Jeff Smith’s imprint. Plus, it’s in real book stores where people actually go and not comic shops.”

As an add on, I was in Captain Blue Hen Comics this Saturday and they have a huge display that they got from Scholastic to help sell Bone. But then again CBH has a great kids section to it.

While I was there, a mother and her 7 year old son came walking in and browsed around the shop. After 20 minutes they came up to the register with about 5 comics. Joe Murray, the owner, asked if these were for her son or someone else and when the lady said they were for her son, he talked her out of getting those specific comics. Her son picked them out for the dynamic covers since they were in bags. The problem with the comics is that they were either part 2 or 3 of a story arc or they were Spider-man comics from the Marvel Knights line which was more adult and graphic. He turned her towards a few Marvel Adventures Spidey books and she picked out a few more from the back issue bin from the late 80s or so. Some Sal Buscema fill ins on Spectuacualr Spidey I could see. Back when pretty much everything was all ages friendly.

As much as I like the Daredevil stuff that Bendis and especially Brubaker did. You can’t let a young kid read it.

There are 2 possible ways to introduce more non-white minority characters into the DCU.

1. Introduce an all new original hero into the cast or supporting cast of an existing team book or solo book.

2. Introduce a brand new character who has taken up the identity of a long dead and/or retired golden age character into the cast or supporting cast of an existing team or solo book. Mister Terrific and JJ Thunder are perfect examples of this.

As for sales of the increasing sales of the Big 2’s, ask yourself these two questions.

1. Do these sales represent actual readers or are readers buying multiple copies of comics?

2. Are the rise in sales due to more books being put out?

Well, look at the Aquaman sales for #20. They were 24k. Current sales are 14k. The Sub-Diego ‘direction’ wasn’t exactly broken — but that didn’t stop Didio from doing yet another ‘old mask, new face’ trick.

WE have nothing to compare Ted Kord and Ray Palmer titles to. I’m sure the numbers from the 80s would have meant “blockbuster” sales in today’s market — but that’s all relative. But you can also point to the success of Hal Jordan’s current title and (it looks like) Booster Gold’s new title.

I think the point Bret Tolino makes is a good one. Didio has been discarding some of the old characters in a bloody-carnage kinda way. What if, instead, he returned those bevolved characters to prominenece? Or, imagine if the New Firestorm book featured a powerless Ronnie in a supporting role? Things like that alone could attract old fans. Let’s face it, the current DC “event” comics are aimed squarely at long-time fans.

“Blue Beetle and Atom were part of Dan Didio’s colorful new revamps. In retooling many of the characters, part of Didio’s Brave New World, he replaced the lead characters in an attempt to bring more ethnicity to the line. A noble move but the road to hell was paved with good intentions. At the time, this move pissed off so many readers, it left a stink and instead of attracting readers, it repelled them.”

I’ve heard this fanboy whinge so often, but I just don’t get it. Show me the big-selling Ted Kord title. Show me the chart-topping Ray Palmer book.

You may not get it but that doesn’t change reality. DC pissed a whole lot of people off with those replacements. Yes, some people did try the books but the reality is, whether you or anyone else thinks those revamps were good, others did not otherwise there wouldn’t be a downward spiral in sales.

You also ask for a big selling Ted Kord title or a chart topping Ray Palmer book? No, they never had one. Firestorm is another animal. When Gerry Conway was doing the book, it ‘was’ a great selling title. He lasted with the book until issue 50, when he left due to the fact that he ran out of stories. When the new team came on, they replaced Raymond to try something new and it was all downhill after that. The book never regained its audience.

As for Brave and The Bold, I love the book. I love Mark Waid and George Perez. However, aside from Batman and GL, they’ve featured characters who aren’t resonating well with the buying public. When a book features characters few like or are problem oriented, characters most people have an aversion towards such as Supergirl and Legion, it’s not going to translate into big sales.

As said before, the Brave New World revamps that didn’t take are only a small part of the actions DC has taken which did not resonate well with consumers. There’s many things, which have been stated many times by many people. And when a company creates that much ill will around so many things, it creates a view of the brand as a whole, not just a title or two here and there.

Also, yes, DC is publishing some great books right now such as JSA, Sinestro War and a hand full of others. However, when the public consensus is so much rabid and against what DC has done, its going to take much more than a handful good books to turn around public perception to get rid of the lingering stink DC has created for themselves.

And of course, telling your a portion of your audience that they don’t matter (Didio’s comment about the online community) certainly isn’t going to bring thumbs up to the already deteriorating points of view about DC as a brand.

I don’t follow - are you arguing for a black Superman or brand new characters? Because neither would work, IMO. Readers, I think, would care about the man behind the mask with the top rank of characters, and introducing brand new characters is very difficult indeed. The best way of decreasing the white male bias is to put non-white minority characters behind second- and third-string legacies that already have acceptance, albeit at a low level. That’s assuming you want to correct the white male bias, of course.

“As long as DC (and Marvel continue to aim MOST of their mainstream superhero books at the existing,shrinking,and jaded older teen and adult readership, they will continue to loose readers/sales.”

Except that they’re not losing readers or sales. From Marc-Oliver’s column, here are the stats for supposedly failing DC:

6 months: +15.6%

1 year : -14.0%

2 years : - 5.6%

3 years : +12.4%

4 years : +32.1%

And Marvel are doing a lot better than that.

“I’m afraid, sir, that reality may have an anti-DC bias.”

LOL. Exactly. Pointing out where DC is going wrong does not constitute being anti-DC. These columns are always a great read and both the guys do a fantastic job!

I’m just curious, is this a talking point amongst the DC fans these days? That anyone criticizing DC has an anti-DC bias? It seems to be making the rounds whenever anyone points out the fact, that, say, World War Hulk X-Men is outselling Countdown, which is supposed to be DC’s tentpole book.

I’m afraid, sir, that reality may have an anti-DC bias.

Okay, You’re talking out of your ass.

1. The falling sales on ALL STAR SUPERMAN pretty much proves what I have been saying all long. Nothing short of Jim Lee (or Michael Turner) drawing the book, will make a Superman SOLO book a consistant top 10 seller.

2. BLUE BEETLE,THE ATOM,FIRESTORM,and AQUAMAN would all still sell like CRAP if the books were still featuring the original characters. And replacing 3rd string lesser known and/or less popular white characters who can’t sustain their own books with non-white minority characters has got to be one of the most half@$$ed and half hearted attempts at diversity that I have ever seen.

3. Marc and Paul are NOT bias towards DC or Marvel. They offer up unbiased analytical data. I appreciate what they are doing and I hope they continue doing it.

4. I said it before, and I’ll say it again. As long as DC (and Marvel continue to aim MOST of their mainstream superhero books at the existing,shrinking,and jaded older teen and adult readership, they will continue to loose readers/sales.

You do not agree with the views? You find them negative, disheartening? Shouting foul here is soo counter-productive! You are simply demoralizing the author and probably spoiling the potential joy we all might have from further installments. just compile your own list and do your own commentary. No one is holding you man, the data source is linked at the very top of the article. If you are too lazy to do any actual work to present your own opinion, maybe you can just provide some commentary at what you think differently from the comments. Tell us what project is doing good and what should be considered a success and why. Criticizing without providing any alternative is not cool at all.

Peace out,
Dreamer

-Michael”

That’s what the complainers on the interweb are asking for (and I’m one of them). You don’t hear the Event Fans because they’re getting what they want. And, at the moment, there are a lot more of them.

“Blue Beetle and Atom were part of Dan Didio’s colorful new revamps. In retooling many of the characters, part of Didio’s Brave New World, he replaced the lead characters in an attempt to bring more ethnicity to the line. A noble move but the road to hell was paved with good intentions. At the time, this move pissed off so many readers, it left a stink and instead of attracting readers, it repelled them.”

I’ve heard this fanboy whinge so often, but I just don’t get it. Show me the big-selling Ted Kord title. Show me the chart-topping Ray Palmer book. The Aquaman relaunch failed, but people forget that DC were about to cancel the Arthur Curry version before Busiek came along with his revamp idea. Comics obsessives care about the face behind the mask, but most people don’t (at least where the C-listers and lower are concerned).

“The most recent BONE volume just broke the two-million mark in sales.”

You’re thinking of a blog post by Jeff Smith on 30 August, but you’re getting the figures horribly mixed up. What Smith actually said was that volume 6 had just gone to a third printing for a total of 260K; and that the total combined sales for the WHOLE SERIES were “nearly 2,000,000.”

How many comic shops ordered Bone to begin with? about half maybe. And how many copies were ordered for each shop? 15-20 at the very most I’d say. And that’s on a high end. Otherwise copies sit on the wall. Most comic shops are piss poor at talking the good stuff up. They just push the popular stuff and that’s it. All-Star Batman is absolute garbage and a waste of paper. Kids don’t go into comic shops unless Dad is going there to pick up his books. And when they do go in, there’s nothng accessible to them to read. Marvel Adventures maybe if the stores actually carry the line of books. Try to pick up any issue of 52 and know what the fuck is actually going on. The old rule of “Every comic book is someone’s first comic book” no longer is applicable.

DC little digests were mishandled as well. Most of those were not placed in the comics section in major book chains for some reason where other manga-sized books are sold, but they were to be found in the chapter books section next to Judy Blume and the Encyclopedia Brown books are. And people don’t see them. I only found them because I was looking for them specifically.

With Diamond being the only distribution for new comics, most creators are stuck with a bad deal since Diamond rapes you for what they take for their cut. DC and Marvel flush tons of money down the toilet on ads in Previews and should market to everyone else outside of the normal comics market as well. But they spend so much on Previews that they don’t have any left for the general public who never walk into comic shops. The bogus death of Captain America is the kind of event that people hear in the news. Does the industry need faked deaths of their characters to drive in people to then buy an overpriced book?

The answer is two fold. First, Blue Beetle and Atom were part of Dan Didio’s colorful new revamps. In retooling many of the characters, part of Didio’s Brave New World, he replaced the lead characters in an attempt to bring more ethnicity to the line. A noble move but the road to hell was paved with good intentions. At the time, this move pissed off so many readers, it left a stink and instead of attracting readers, it repelled them. Additionally, he didn’t just replace the characters people knew and liked like Ted Kord, Ray Palmer and Ronnie Raymond. He destroyed those original characters, also turning more people off than on. This creates an aversion to people picking up the book. Even Julie Schwartz knew this when he replaced characters in the silver age, you don’t destroy the originals.

Also, some people did try and sample the new books but they couldn’t retain their audience. Now, the people reading those books today may find those books great but obviously, others didn’t otherwise they wouldn’t have dropped the books resulting in the downward spiral in sales.

Brave and The Bold? Yes it has a super team but team books never were top list sellers. Also, they have used characters that people aren’t feeling too great about like Supergirl (in 2 issues), Blue Beetle (see above), Lobo (whose time has long since passed) and the current messy Legion. A team-up title featuring characters people don’t like. Yes, the first issue was Batman and Green Lantern so it did do okay. After that, it’s all down hill so its a no brainer why this title isn’t performing better.

Thing is, fans and consumers feel an immense amount of ill will towards the sweeping changes in ‘DC Nation’. Whether it be because of all the late shipping titles, the bloodbath slaughtering of many people’s favorite characters, the sweeping replacements of Brave New World and the mess called Countdown, the fact still remains. DC has created more ill will amongst fans than good will. The ill ill has left such a stink, creating such an intense aversion towards DC that now, its not just titles facing a loss but the entire DC brand.

And yes, while DC’s shipping has got a bit better, the titles that have shipped have shipped books with stories out of order, some of the stories which have yet to reach their conclusion.

So, while there may be many unconditional DC supporters out there who are willing to ride it through, this is not reflective of the majority consensus. Again, DC’s pissing and turning off of readers was so wide spread and intense during the past year or two, that once you turn your consumer away, it’s two times as difficult to get them or new readers back because all people remember is that DC as a brand has too much ill will. DC may feel their readers don’t matter (Dan Didio’s comment that he pays no mind to the online community) but obviously, they do otherwise they would be buying the books.

And its going to take a whole lot more than what they’re doing now to regain reader respect and consumer confidence. After all, you can throw the garbage away but when the stink is that bad and intense, the foul air is going to linger for a long time after.

The most recent BONE volume just broke the two-million mark in sales.

And those sales are (shock awe) mostly to kids.

The world of comics extends well beyond the few shops you checked out. Things are not so dire.

Second, it is interesting to note that the BC mini undersold both the “feeder streams” of Green Arrow title and the Birds of Prey title, when the story was central to both of them. I can only imagine that this was the result of giving us Dinah’s answer in the solicits before Mr. Bedard’s book came out (which btw, was a fun read).

In the comments to what particular book do you see a bias? Just curious, since I don’t see it myself.