Facts emerge in fired teacher/EIGHTBALL case
The New Haven Register weighs in with actual news story about the story of Connecticut teacher Nathan Fisher who resigned after parents complained about him giving a 13-year-old a mature reader comic to read. The story confirms that it was, indeed EIGHTBALL #22 which is the book in question. The book shows a topless women and a man putting his hand up a woman’s skirt. Of course, there is much more to the story — it seems the student has been hazed in person and on Facebook*** because the teacher was very popular with other students.
The parents of a freshman student whose teacher resigned after he gave her a sexually explicit illustrated book said Wednesday their daughter has been the target of harassment from fellow students, and they want the school district to do more to clarify the issue with other parents.
The girl’s father, who asked that his family remain anonymous because it has already been the target of criticism, described the graphic novel that English teacher Nate Fisher gave the student as “borderline pornography.”
The book, one of a series of comic book novels by Daniel Clowes, is called “Eightball #22.” It includes references to rape, various sex acts and murder, as well as images of a naked woman, and a peeping tom watching a woman in the shower.
“It’s not even like a gray area,” the father said. “It’s clearly over the line.”
CBLDF head Chalres Brownstein is quoted throughout the story. Reading between thelines, all we can say is that we’re glad that dad wasn’t our dad. That said, it is up to parents to choose what their kids read. While we may think that the Clowesian brand of “rape and…murder” is fine, it may not be fine for all kids.
As for whether the teacher in question can be prosecuted…well, Clowes’ new comic strip running in the NY Times and general reputation as a respected literary figure would certainly make any legal action very interesting. In fact, EIGHTBALL #22 was eventually collected by Random House as the grahpic novel ICE HAVEN, making prosecution seem crazy mad. But sadly, worse things have happened in these United States. If nothing else, this small town tale of a very protective father, a well liked teacher, and a girl harassed by her schoolmates could be something out of…A DANIEL CLOWES COMIC!
If you watch the various news reports up on the internet, it’s clear that the media is making a meal out of this, with the sensational aspects played up. We’ve predicted this before, but we’ll predict it again: once someone who wants ratings actually reads a yaoi manga, we’re in for it.
***Facebook is the devil’s work by the way.
09/20/07 at 1:17 pm
It would seem, that this is over all, a sad thing for everybody. No one comes out of it unhurt, and why? Because one poor (and yet not horrible) choice can snowball into an avalanche of rash hatred, poor conclusions, and pretended outrage. It’s like asking who killed Lora Palmer. Everyone is guilty in one aspect of this, or another, except the girl herself.
09/20/07 at 1:45 pm
Well, legally speaking, neither Clowes nor Fisher can be successfully prosecuted or sued for peddling pornography, because the story in question is not, by legal definitions, pornographic.
Beyond that there is simply the question of judgment. That is, what led Fisher to think that this book was an appropriate selection for reader’s advisory? What circumstances in the girl’s life were relevant to the book? It wasn’t random. He was responding to some information need the girl had. Whether his diagnosis and prescription were well-matched is another matter. But what was his diagnosis based on?
These are the questions that will run through my YA librarian brain as I follow this thing.
09/20/07 at 1:45 pm
If I have to stop and think for a moment if I’d give EB #22 to my 13 year-old, then I am little stunned that a teacher 0 in this day and age - wouldn’t stop and think:
1) Is this proper for this kid (given my perception of the suitability of his age and maturity)?
2) Most importantly, what will the perception of the parent/school/media be if this ever comes to a head?
I’m watching my son’s mother very closely for overdoing it with the “boy in a bubble” syndrome. Don’t quite know how we develop maturing children when we’re stuck with a social moré that protects children at ALL costs from ANYTHING they might encounter that would turn their “fragile” minds into paste.
Wasn’t that 1950s and the CCA? You’d think we’d have grown after half-a-century of experience, but apparently us humans don’t handle change all that well.
09/20/07 at 2:00 pm
Blake, parents decide what they teach their children (as long as laws do not intervene). But one has to temper that with the consequences of the child being unable to differentiate between what is acceptable at home and elsewhere.
I posted a comment earlier but I don’t see it. Sniff.
09/20/07 at 2:16 pm
I don’t remember anything in this book that would prevent it from being given a PG-13 rating if this were a film.
09/20/07 at 2:27 pm
Kevin: That is, what led Fisher to think that this book was an appropriate selection for reader’s advisory?
That’s the question I keep asking, and no one has supplied an answer for that yet.
I am withholding all judgment until I get that piece of information.
09/20/07 at 4:07 pm
Any book, can be considered pornographic, just as any person can be arrested for some infraction. As the CBLDF will tell you, a lot of time and money will be spent before the judge, and maybe a jury, will decide if a book violates community standards.
Of course, we have to wait to see what criminal charges will be filed. Until then, I hope the girl doesn’t kill herself, or her classmates.
09/20/07 at 4:09 pm
“Kevin: That is, what led Fisher to think that this book was an appropriate selection for reader’s advisory?”
Perhaps as some sort of bizarre “opening act” in a plan to “get to know her better”. We see it all the time in the news…pervo adults weedling their way into kids’ lives, then springing this kind of garbage on them.
As for this:
“…all we can say is that we’re glad that dad wasn’t our dad. “
Yeah, you’d hate to have your dad protecting you from nebulous, vaguely predatory gestures like a teacher randomly giving you a sexually explicity comic book. Why can’t he be like all the cool dads and be narcissistically oblivious to his kid’s welfare or hip enough to buy her the Comlete Clowes Library?
WTF?
09/20/07 at 4:11 pm
Mr. Moonlight, the answer is clear cut, Laura Palmer was killed by her father who was possessed by the evil spirit Bob.
It was not everyone’s fault, but in this case I really am sorry for the young girl and what she’s going through. She doesn’t deserve any grief for this. STOP being so mean, you kids!
09/20/07 at 4:29 pm
“***Facebook is the devil’s work by the way.”
I’d heard it was developed by the CIA. So yeah, you’re probably right.
09/20/07 at 4:37 pm
The book without a question is improper for a 13-year-old student. Not because of the age of the student, but because she is a student. If her parents bought the book for her to read, it would be entirely different. Teachers need to be extremely careful of what they say and do.
Unlike Mark Engblom, I can’t make the leap in thought that the teacher was trying to worm his way into her life. I know a young teacher, and he has much enthusiasm for his job and the prospects for teaching young minds. Perhaps this teacher is the same, saw an unusually thoughtful student, and made an error in judgment.
09/20/07 at 4:48 pm
“Yeah, you’d hate to have your dad protecting you from nebulous, vaguely predatory gestures like a teacher randomly giving you a sexually explicity comic book.”
To Mark Engbloom: what exactly is sexually explicit about Eightball #22, again?
I’d like to remind everyone that no one knows anything yet about the circumstances of this matter. There is absolutely no reason to believe that this is anything other than a massive misunderstanding at this point, and I would urge everyone to tone down the rhetoric and wait for more information to come out; it’s bad enough that someone has already lost his job before an investigation has been completed and any criminal charges have been filed.
And to Alan Coil: for what it’s worth, School Library Journal gave this comic a “Grade 10-up” recommendation. That hardly implies subject matter that is “without question” improper for any student.
09/20/07 at 4:53 pm
I read THE GODFATHER in when I was that age. I checked it out of the Jr. High library.
There is absolutely nothing in ICE HAVEN that even remotely approaches the levels of sex, depravity, and violence that are in that book. NOTHING. (note: it is shockingly more graphic than the movie.)
Yet where are all the parents protesting Mario Puzo? Why no big protests about prose? Why is it that if a book is a graphic novel, as opposed to a prose novel, does its age-appropriateness change?
I am sick of the double-standard.
09/20/07 at 5:02 pm
Every year plenty of prose books get challenged in schools for much less shocking stuff than this Eightball issue. Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and others constantly are being brought up. What will upset parents even more about this is that it’s a visual representation.
“My kid doesn’t even have to use her imagination to see the boobies!”
09/20/07 at 5:10 pm
“Unlike Mark Engblom, I can’t make the leap in thought that the teacher was trying to worm his way into her life.”
I’m not saying he was or he wasn’t. I’m merely suggesting that it was a possibility (based on the increased reporting of this sort of thing). Speaking as the father of a teenaged girl, that would definitely be the thing I first thought of if a teacher was passing this kind of stuff off to her.
“To Mark Engbloom: what exactly is sexually explicit about Eightball #22, again?”
Well, here’s what the article said:
“It includes references to rape, various sex acts and murder, as well as images of a naked woman, and a peeping tom watching a woman in the shower.”
If “rape, various sex acts” and “naked women and peeping tom” don’t qualify as sexually explicit, then I guess nothing is.
09/20/07 at 5:17 pm
Parents would be protesting if 13 year olds were being assigned THE GODFATHER and were aware.
09/20/07 at 5:45 pm
Nate Fisher!
Man, I knew he was a bad influence when he puffed the magic dragon in that HBO show.
Now this - unbelievable!
09/20/07 at 5:47 pm
Mark:
A naked woman is automatically sexually explicit? Perhaps in the mind of boys everywhere, but is this always the case? As for the “dad” comment I made, most of the quotes from the dad have been pretty inflexible and judgmental. Perhaps the media is portraying him this way. As is so many times the case when we parse everything down however, we don’t know any of the facts regarding this case. I pity this poor teenager, who will have to live with the shame and guilt or being persucuted by her classmates far longer than the sight of a naked woman’s sexually explicit breast would ever have done.
09/20/07 at 5:47 pm
I came here to post the same thing as Eric Reynolds: School Library Journal rated this book (Ice Haven, which is essentially a reprint of Eightball 22) as “Grade 10 and up.” The girl is a freshman. So, if she had been one year older, the book would have been fine; but in Grade 9, it’s cause for pushing him to resign?
That’s ridiculous.
09/20/07 at 5:48 pm
“I’m not saying he was or he wasn’t. I’m merely suggesting that it was a possibility.”
Sure it’s a possibility, but why suggest this one in particular when you have no evidence for suspecting this over any other? And when you have no real evidence, a 1000 scenarios are possible.
Why is that the one motive that you want to attribute to him?
“Speaking as the father of a teenaged girl, that would definitely be the thing I first thought of if a teacher was passing this kind of stuff of to her.”
Again, why is this your first thought?
It doesn’t sound to me like you have read it or even skimmed it - so how do you know what ‘this kind of stuff’ is . . .
09/20/07 at 5:54 pm
“I pity this poor teenager, who will have to live with the shame and guilt or being persucuted by her classmates far longer than the sight of a naked woman’s sexually explicit breast would ever have done. ”
So perhaps the villains are the parents, who created a situation in which their daughter suffers a very real harm, instead of the possible harm of reading the word “pussy,” seeing a breast etc . . . Wouldn’t good parents think it through, rather than rush to judgment? Sometimes the immediate desire to punish someone has unintended consequences.
09/20/07 at 5:59 pm
Molly hits it right on the head.
I had lunch with my mom today, and talking about it I remember we saw the 1968 Romeo & Juliet film in English class when we were freshman, including the nudity and, although people don’t seem to count this, all the violence. No one thought anything of it.
I appreciate any parent wanting to protect the children under their care, but I don’t think they’d be any less protected if a solution with more possibilities than immediate resignation had been pursued.
We don’t know enough about anything to even make a sentence with proper nouns that seriously suggests any motivation, and that’s true if things turn out to be absolutely benign OR if the teacher that resigned is a cannibal that hoped to eat the student in question.
09/20/07 at 6:01 pm
Mark,
Have you actually read Eightball #22 (aka “Ice Harvest”)?
Judging from your response, “here’s what the article said…” you haven’t.
If “rape, various sex acts” and “naked women and peeping tom” don’t qualify as sexually explicit, then I guess nothing is.
If you read the story in question, you might question how explicit the citations are. The naked woman can be viewed in today’s Journalista.
09/20/07 at 6:01 pm
I mention Romeo & Juliet because I grew up in a small city in Indiana during the Reagan Years, a place where people would stop and sing along with Lee Greenwood on the TV, which suggests to me that something’s changed in the way we process this kind of circumstance.
09/20/07 at 6:03 pm
“A naked woman is automatically sexually explicit?”
You’re conveniently leaving out that minor little “rape” and “various sex acts” reference from the article. THAT’S what I’m referring to…not the boobies.
09/20/07 at 6:05 pm
“f you read the story in question, you might question how explicit the citations are. The naked woman can be viewed in today’s Journalista.”
So rape in the proper context is a beautiful thing for a 13 year old to read about?
Ah. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up, Jim.
09/20/07 at 6:08 pm
You avoided my question, Mark.
Have you read it?
If not, you’re arguing from utter ignorance.
09/20/07 at 6:14 pm
There’s a difference betweeen a reference to rape [ “what if he rapes me” is what the character says] and a depiction of rape.
Here’s what explicit mean for those of use who don’t seem to know:
1. fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal: explicit instructions; an explicit act of violence; explicit language.
2. clearly developed or formulated: explicit knowledge; explicit belief.
3. definite and unreserved in expression; outspoken: He was quite explicit as to what he expected us to do for him.
4. described or shown in realistic detail: explicit sexual scenes.
5. having sexual acts or nudity clearly depicted: explicit movies; explicit books.
09/20/07 at 6:17 pm
As seen on Amazon, Ice Haven - the graphic novel Eightball#22 was re-printed as (with a few small additions), is reviewed by The School Library Journal as appropriate for Grade 10 and up. Now, perhaps Nate Fisher was a little precipitious in giving it to a 9th grader, but advanced material gets given to advanced students all the time to challenge them, and the difference of one grade is reasonable.
The material is not pornographic. He wasn’t asking her to read a stack of old Playboys. The assignment was to read material of a challenging nature. (Let’s also note that the girl is 14, and not 13 as seen in this article.) If the parents object to material, I’m sure they had recourse that included asking him to change the material before trying to have him fired. There are many great works of literature that reference sex, nudity, and rape without being porn, and while it is certainly the parents right to object to it, it’s not appropriate to decide that the teacher not be allowed to teach because YOU object to it. I’ve interviewed many teachers on various parental objections for some of the local journalism I’ve done, and the one thing that the teachers always tell me is that the parents get mad at material or the amount of homework, or what their kid is expected to do in gym class, and they go from 0 to “that teacher needs to be kicked out of teaching.” There is always a compromise that can be worked out if the parents are reasonable about it.
09/20/07 at 6:17 pm
“So rape in the proper context is a beautiful thing for a 13 year old to read about?”
First of all, references and depiction are two entirely different things. I think a 13 year old *should* be aware of the concept of rape and murder and genocide, even if I don’t think they should be given graphic portrayals of such and a *reference* is what we’re talking about. And who says we should only be giving “beautiful things” for 13 year olds to read about. Better strike all those references to WWII and the Holocaust from your World History (Post-1900) text books!
09/20/07 at 6:27 pm
We’ve the obvious open schoolboy rape,
With little mandolins and perhaps a cape.
The rape by coach; it’s little in request.
The rape by day, but the rape by night is best.
Just try to see it.
And you will soon agree, señors,
Why
Invite regret,
When you can get the sort of rape
You’ll never ever forget.
You can get the rape emphatic.
You can get the rape polite.
You can get the rape with Indians:
A very charming sight.
You can get the rape on horseback;
They’ll all say it’s new and gay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
It depends on what you
Pay.
The kids will love it.
It depends on what you pay!
So why be stingy?
It depends on what you –
The spectacular rape,
With costumes ordered from the East.
Requires rehearsal
And takes a dozen men at least.
A couple of singers,
And a string quartet.
A major production.
Requires a set.
Sounds expensive!
Just try to see it.
And you will soon si,si señors,
Why
Invite regret,
When you can get the sort of rape
You’ll never ever forget.
You can get the rape emphatic.
You can get the rape polite.
You can get the rape with Indians:
A very charming sight.
You can get the rape on horseback;
They’ll all say it’s new and gay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
It depends on what you
Pay.
So why be stingy?
It depends on what you pay!
The kids will love it.
It depends on what you –
The comic rape.
Perhaps it’s just a trifle too unique.
Romantic rape:
Done while canoeing on a moonlit creek.
The gothic rape!
I play “Valkyrie” on a bass bassoon!
The drunken rape.
It’s done completely in a cheap saloon.
The rape Venetian
Needs a blue lagoon.
The rape with moonlight
Or without a moon.
Moonlight is expensive but it’s in demand.
The military rape:
It’s done with drummer and a band.
You understand?
I understand.
It’s very grand.
It’s very grand.
It’s done with drums and a great big brass band!
Yeah!
Just try to see it.
I see it!
I see it!
And you will soon si,si señors,
Why
Invite regret,
When you can get the sort of rape
You’ll never ever forget.
You can get the rape emphatic.
You can get the rape polite.
You can get the rape with Indians:
A very charming sight.
You can get the rape on horseback;
They’ll all say it’s new and gay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
So you see the sort of rape
Depends on what you pay.
Depends on what you pay.
Depends on what you pay.
Depends on what you pay.
Depends on what you pay.
So why be stingy?
It depends on what you pay!
The kids will love it.
It depends on what you
Ra-aa-aa-pe!
Ole!
09/20/07 at 6:33 pm
Fantastick!
09/20/07 at 9:31 pm
Why can’t we get the facts straight?
Was the graphic novel or the actual comic given to the girl?
09/20/07 at 10:04 pm
What is the school’s mascot?
What does the teacher think of sharing a name with the lead character from Six Feet Under?
09/20/07 at 10:08 pm
Damn it, “matterconsumer” deserves the truth!
09/20/07 at 10:12 pm
Tom, I have to love you now.
In other news, I had to read The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter my freshman year. I haven’t even read that much Clowes, but I can unequivocally state, and will do so under oath, that I’d rather have been assigned him than Carson McCullers.
09/20/07 at 10:42 pm
By this age you are ready to read anything, in a school setting. And this book is pretty tame. It’s not a dirty book.
09/20/07 at 11:22 pm
Tom, don’t you want the truth too?
09/20/07 at 11:41 pm
Hell, no. That truth’s in such bad shape that even his advocate uses a fake name.
09/20/07 at 11:41 pm
Appropriate or not?
Eightball #22 by Daniel Clowes
p26
Blue Bunny
Blue Bunny: I’m back in town, kids, fresh-sprung from prison!
Blue Bunny: I paid my dues! It’s all about me this time!
(bunny passes people on streat)
Blue Bunny: Wha’ choo lookin’ at, doosh?
(blue bunny passes female on street)
Blue Bunny: Hey red, how’sabouta suck-job? I been living on state pussy for eighteen months!
Blue Bunny: That’s alright for you then, bitch!
(bunny passes sign “now hiring”)
Employer: Sorry, but the position has already been filled.
Blue Bunny: Who needs your shitty job? I won’t starve!
(bunny passes old lady with purse in on the street)
Blue Bunny: Hand it over, grammaw!
Blue Bunny: GIVE IT!
Policeman: Hold it right there!
Blue Bunny: Yowsa!
Blue Bunny: You won’t take me down!
Blue Bunny: I’m on my third strike!
(bunny shoots flamethrower into crowd of police)
Blue Bunny: I’ll roast you all!
(bunny throws dynamite into crowd of police)
Blue Bunny: My excuse is I had a lousy upbringing!
(explosions all around)
Blue Bunny: Top o’ the world, ma!
Blue Bunny: That’s more like it! Eat shit losers!
This isn’t the worst of what is in Eightball 22
- Two young kids have sex than kill another kid because he was gay and retarded, bury him in a hole, then piss on the grave.
- A man masturbates on a toilet
- A cave man killing another caveman and then rapes his mate.
The School Library Journal has rated this book for 10th grade or above, but who is the School Library Journal and what authority do they have to rate reading material for schools.
The real problem with this is the fact that a teacher gave this student this type of reading material after class as an additional reading assignment. This 13 yo girl was the was the ONLY one that received this material. The school had no knowledge of this as stated by the superintendent.
The teacher resigned in order to avoid a lengthy wrongful termination hearing in which he would have had to prove that his actions were condoned by the school board, which it has already been reported that it wasn’t.
Charles Brownstein spoke all through the article and even wrote on blogs about this article that it is a grave injustice that a teacher resigned over assigning a Daniel Clowes comic. The CBLDF clearly feels that this course of events is completely innocent. Clearly, the CBLDF and Charles Brownstein have no problem exposing you children to this type of material and don’t feel there is any need to approve reading material before handing it out to students.
What’s next, shall teachers hold kids after class and give them additional assignments in the proper way to give oral sex, and than ask for a demonstration?
Where do we draw the line?
There is a reason why reading material is first approved by the administration before hand. This is not a censorship issue, no one is calling for censorship. A line has to be drawn on what material is used as reading, and once defined, that line should never be crossed, because we trust the school administration to follow through with the policy they create.
-A concerned parent
09/20/07 at 11:43 pm
James typed his response naked from the back of a unicorn.
09/20/07 at 11:48 pm
“What’s next, shall teachers hold kids after class and give them additional assignments in the proper way to give oral sex, and than ask for a demonstration?”
So much for my exclusive interview with Charles Brownstein running tomorrow where he advocates for Nationwide Blowjob Clubs.
09/21/07 at 12:09 am
Oh please, won’t someone think of the children…
09/21/07 at 12:22 am
I think it’s better to try and stick with the facts than to overstate and jump to unwarranted conclusions.
Tom, I don’t know what was actually given to the student. It doesn’t seem to have been age appropriate but that’s based on information which may or may not be true. Still don’t know what was really given to the student.
Tom, do you think that this was age appropriate material?
09/21/07 at 12:24 am
If the girl took out the book at a local public library on her own, perhaps it’s not that big of a deal. The teacher giving the 14-year-old girl the book–and only to her, from what I infer, so it wasn’t a class assignment–and his comments is what is disturbing.
09/21/07 at 12:50 am
[…] Facts emerge in fired teacher/EIGHTBALL case from THE BEAT […]
09/21/07 at 1:14 am
The Guilford High School summer reading list is online at:
http://www.guilford.k12.ct.us/summer%20school/Summer%20Author%20List%202007.pdf
It’s got Bukowski and Ginsberg and Augustyn Burroughs and Sylvia Plath
and Janet Evanovich on it. You know, kid stuff.
09/21/07 at 1:17 am
I don’t see Daniel Clowes on that list…….
09/21/07 at 1:20 am
It’s possible that this young girl was assigned a comic because she wasn’t able to participate in the summer reading assignment and had to read something in a short period of time.
No one should lose their career or reputation over this
09/21/07 at 1:26 am
“I don’t see Daniel Clowes on that list.”
Which may be grounds for some kind of action if that’s against the rules, but claiming Eightball #22 is inappropriate when her summer reading list includes Bukowski, Ginsburg, Lawrence, Kerouac, Plath, etc? I don’t think so.
09/21/07 at 1:58 am
“The teacher resigned in order to avoid a lengthy wrongful termination hearing in which he would have had to prove that his actions were condoned by the school board, which it has already been reported that it wasn’t.”
Where was this reported? None of the news articles said as much. Is this just speculation?
09/21/07 at 4:02 am
The ad’s being a douche, that’s all there is too it.
The controversy has driven me to actually download a really crappy scan of this horrible pornographic book, and I honestly don’t see what the heck the problem is. I’ve seen Justice League books more explicit than that. It certainly isn’t appropriate for very young children, but there is certainly nothing wrong with it for teens. The one little bit of nudity was highly medical and completely nonsexual. The little bit of sexually suggestive text is completely disarmed by the non-sexual context provided by the images.
If he gave out Mai-Chan’s daily life as a reading assignment, it would be clearly over the line, wherever the line actually is (no one can pinpoint it for sure). And the Dad is making it out like Eightball #22 is Mai-Chan’s Daily life. But it isn’t. It isn’t anywhere close to what he makes it out to be.
He’s a douche.
It is, as stated, appropriate for a highschool audience. If he disagreed with it, it is his right as a parent to request a change, obviously. But, teachers cannot be expected to seek parental approval for every minute piece of their curricula beforehand. Schools could not function if that were the case. There is such a thing as discretion, and he was well within his discretionary rights to give a non-standard reading asignment simply to give a student a break, because that is what it was, a break. He throw a softball at her so that it would be easier for her to make up the work that she missed for whatever reason. There is nothing untoward about that. It is commendable.
And the funny thing is that she’s probably seen extremely explicit violent pornography before, because there is such a thing as the internet and any kid with half a brain can locate explicit pictures of Draco Malfoy raping Harry Potter, and vica-versa, which happen to drawn by 13-year-old girls.
And in the off chance that the teacher is a pervert, wouldn’t it be easier just to tell her to bite his penis off should he ever pull it out? It’s a common sense solution that works against all perverted authority figures.
09/21/07 at 6:40 am
And John Kerry said nothing?
09/21/07 at 8:16 am
It’s been twelve years and I’m still trying to get my high school English teacher fired for making me read Ethan Frome.
09/21/07 at 8:46 am
My wife is a high school English teach at a large suburban high school (and I’ve been involved in the education field for 17 years). I told her about this last night. She asked if the teacher talked about giving the book with a curriculum coordinator or at least his department head. It would have taken a few minutes and he would have at least covered his back by doing this.
09/21/07 at 8:56 am
If I give Eightball #22 to my 13 year, that is one thing. If my sons teacher gives it him it is something completely different.
Only someone without a lick of common sense would give that comic to a 13 year old that wasn’t their own child. And I write this thinking Eightball #22 was one of the best comic ever produced.
09/21/07 at 8:59 am
Sounds like Tom and I were shown the 1968 Romeo and Juliet about the same time.
In my case it would’ve been late Fresh/early Soph year. At our small Southern Illinois high school, the teacher opted to fast forward during the one scene after an earlier class had a few “hoots and hollers” at the sight of Olivia Hussey’s nipple.
For point of reference, the other major reading assignments we had from that teacher that I recall were Hound of the Baskervilles and The Good Earth.
09/21/07 at 9:22 am
“Tom, do you think that this was age appropriate material?”
I have no opinion on this whatsoever. You could make the case this student’s father doesn’t seem mature enough to read the comic. My 11-year-old goddaughter would have no problem with it.
I know from working with youth in church that you’re never going to find agreement on what’s appropriate or inappropriate for minors. I think that makes it vital that we have a way to process these disagreements in a way that doesn’t involve the suggestion that Blowjob Parties are on their way or result in news articles where employees of the school system suggest the teacher might have been due an ass-whuppin’, or whatever the equivalent from the other side might be.
09/21/07 at 9:37 am
I find the Parents in this case, and many of them on this board much scarier than the teacher.
09/21/07 at 9:45 am
BTW, I didn’t mean my take on age appropriate material as flippant. It’s just that it’s a term that likely has great meaning for an educator and almost no meaning for me in that context. I don’t know all the factors that you’d have to parse in order to make an educator’s policy out of the notion of age appropriate material. How does violence work in there? Are the YA novels that deal with rape weighted differently than adult novels that deal with that horrifying thing or is that just a verboten subject? I seriously have no idea. I read a lot of Stephen King in middle school study hall — was the school enabling my access to age-inappropriate material?
I can say Eightball #22 isn’t something I would assign as reading in a Sunday School aimed at 14-year-olds, or that I would give out on Halloween.
09/21/07 at 10:04 am
I am also the mother of a daughter at Guilford High School. I appreciate the teacher’s effort to encourage teens to get interested in reading by using material that would appeal to them. We don’t know the circumestances or conversations that lead to Mr. Fisher choosing this specific item to give the girl to read. We have heard that she did nto complete her summer readign assignment, so he gave her this comic book to do so. It sounds to me like she does not enjoy reading and through some conversation, Fisher may have found out she liked the movie based on another of the author’s books, so he thought this was a good tool to inspire a love of reading in her. Maybe he shold have asked her parents if it would be ok first, as it was borderline objectionable in content, but I think his motives were what great teachers are made of. I can’t believe he would lose his career over this. It’s obvious that people are afraid of the dad - he is intimidating people into submission.
09/21/07 at 10:48 am
Wow.
My high school graphics teacher recommended both [i]Naked Lunch[/i] and [i]Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas[/i]. And, as I recall, he had quite the stash of Avant Garde and Utne Reader mags lying around for us kids to peruse.
What’s the statute of limitations again…?*
(*that was a joke, son)
09/21/07 at 10:55 am
As we grow older the same people who shield thier children also tend to miss the bygone age of ‘purity’. In any case, I think the teacher gave the student the book because its a brilliant [read the reviews foo’s!] and its a book coming from a very important writer [Daniel Clowes, sillies!]. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. I read Catcher in the Rye when I was 12 for school. Just as graphic and violent. When you lie to kids and shield them from realities THAT is when they grow up weird. Note, not show them porn, but honesty. Ice Haven falls into the latter, and someone is overreacting.
09/21/07 at 10:57 am
Also, any argument that ends with ‘think of the children!’ or ‘it is possible this makes you a pedophile’, even when no pedophilia is involved, are arguments that get people mumbling to themselves awkwardly instead of defending, irregardless of right and wrong.
09/21/07 at 11:03 am
“Note, not show them porn, but honesty. Ice Haven falls into the latter, and someone is overreacting.”
How is this “honesty”?…
“Blue Bunny: Hey red, how’sabouta suck-job? I been living on state pussy for eighteen months!
Blue Bunny: That’s alright for you then, bitch!
(bunny passes sign “now hiring”)
Employer: Sorry, but the position has already been filled.
Blue Bunny: Who needs your shitty job? I won’t starve!”
Question: How is a parent supposed to react to material like this being given to their 13 year old child? With a smile and a slap on the back for the teacher? “Hey, thanks for giving my kid all that honesty!”
Do any of you don’t see anything wrong with the teacher’s actions actually have children…particularly teenaged children? No, I’m not talking neices, nephews, godchildren, next door neighbors, friends of kids, etc. I mean actually raising kids with your own values, and having to deal with nosebleeds like this teacher undermining that value system without any knowledge or consent from you.
Would you feel the same way if the teacher slipped the kid a Christian tract, a Ronald Reagan biography, or (gasp) a Bible?
09/21/07 at 11:05 am
So, thanks to rabbitbasket, as far as we can tell the girl liked either Ghost World or Art School Confidential, so her teacher gave her Eightball.
Hm, Ghost World was rated R. It contained swearing and sex and brief nudity, references to S&M and “tight cracks and enlarged holes” (best line ever). I haven’t seen ASC, but I feel I can assume much of the same.
Eightball contained swearing and sex and brief nudity, and references to rape and murder (neither of which, if you read it, ACTUALLY happened in the book).
As far as I can tell, all Fisher wanted to do was get this girl off on the right foot. She didn’t do her summer reading assignment, so instead of starting off with a mark against her the first day, he decided to give her a second chance. Should he have consulted her parents first? On reflection, yes. Should he be fired for it? Absolutely not.
And frankly, my parents would have been more pissed that I didn’t do my summer reading assignment.
09/21/07 at 11:10 am
Seems like most folks who have kids have said that the teacher should have used better judgment/discretion. Folks without kids seem to be saying, “Let kids read what they want. Can’t shield them forever!” Reminds me of the line from “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory” where Mike TV asks his dad if he can get a real Colt .45. His dad replies: “Not til your 12, son!”
09/21/07 at 11:16 am
Do any of you don’t see anything wrong with the teacher’s actions actually have children…particularly teenaged children?
No, but I was a teenager until about six months ago.
Would you feel the same way if the teacher slipped the kid a Christian tract, a Ronald Reagan biography, or (gasp) a Bible?
The Bible was assigned reading in my sophomore English class (The Bible as/in literature, mind you, but the Bible nonetheless) And I went to a liberal secular humanist prep school in Massachusetts. Not to mention, for a public school teacher to distribute religious tracts (of any religion) is considered a violation of the First Amendment. A Ronald Reagan biography, I’m sure, qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment. But seriously, this all has to do with the teacher’s intentions. As far as I can tell, is intentions were pure, and therefre he should not be losing his job over it.
09/21/07 at 11:19 am
The honesty in that scene comes from the idea that our childhood heroes and entertainers, i.e., Bugs Bunny, can have feet of clay. It represents the child’s childhood meshing with the biography of Loeb and Leopold, who in real life murdered a child. When the Bugs Bunny gangster asks for a ’suck job’, it is suppoused to be ironic. Never does Blue Bunny get a suck job.
Pornography is nudity with no deep meaning, meant to tittilate. There is plenty of deep meaning in Ice Haven.
I dunno about the folks who *have* kids, but I actually remember being a kid. Wasn’t that long ago for me, and most normal children can handle more than most adults think. It seems like the father is the only one reacting. Not, the daughter.
09/21/07 at 11:21 am
And if she DID enjoy Ghost World… well, Ice Haven is rather tame in comparison. Really, this all reeks of overreaction.
09/21/07 at 11:28 am
Ya all are missing the point…not if EIGHTBALL is appropriate material for a 13 year old, (for some it would be for others no), but that a teacher took it upon himself to judge if it was appropriate material for a 13 year old student of his.
09/21/07 at 11:31 am
OH MY GOD! WHY DID HER PARENTS LET HER WATCH THE GHOST WORLD MOVIE? IT WAS RATED R! WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO DRILL INTO HER HEAD, THAT (whoops, caps lock) it’s okay to sleep with Steve Buscemi? I guess they were trying to do that in the same way some think the teacher was planning to use a stack of books from his perverted graphic novel collection to climb into her bedroom at night. Pure speculation, of course…
09/21/07 at 11:36 am
“Would you feel the same way if the teacher slipped the kid a Christian tract, a Ronald Reagan biography, or (gasp) a Bible?”
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on Heidi’s site, especially as it follow the cheapest of cheap ploys of “you people have no children, and therefore you cannot truly understand.” The reason why that’s a cheap ploy is that nobody in that position is claiming full understanding of the situation, and the vast majority of people have expressed sympathy for parents put into this situation and facing these kinds of issues generally.
And I love the smarmy use of “slipped”. Sheesh.
Outside of the Land of Conservative Christian Victimhood, a tract is in no way logically comparable to a work of art, even if they’re works of art you don’t like. I can’t imagine two parents being grown from the DNA of hair found in a brush Jane Fonda used in Hanoi giving two shits if a respectable biography of Ronald Reagan were on a kid’s supplementary reading list, and the bible would be a comparable example if she were given the Koran.
Further all of this betrays a disgusting assumption of motivation that even if it turns out to be absolutely true should not yet enter the discussion.
09/21/07 at 11:56 am
“…the vast majority of people have expressed sympathy for parents put into this situation and facing these kinds of issues generally.”
Where? I could probably count ‘em on one hand. Most are either slamming on the dad, , rationalizing the offensive stuff, or can’t for the life of them figure out why someone wouldn’t think Eight Ball is profound literature.
“And I love the smarmy use of “slipped”. Sheesh.”
That’s all your inference, Tom. Must be reading too many of those deep, profound comix.
“Outside of the Land of Conservative Christian Victimhood, a tract is in no way logically comparable to a work of art, even if they’re works of art you don’t like. “
Never said it was. I was trying to conjure up something that someone of a more liberal persuation would find upsetting that a teacher gave to their minor child, something that went against the particular morality they were trying to teach and model at home. Whatever that may be….a Christian tract was a bad example since it’s against the law….but maybe, say, a comic book debunking global warming in a humorous way, or a pro military comic book. Whatever…you can fill in the blank with whatever material you, as a hypothetical parent would feel undermines what you’re trying to teach at home, and don’t appreciate a teacher giving it to the child without your knowledge or approval. Surely the teacher was smart enough to know not every parent would appreciate this kind of thing being given to their kid, yet he did it anyway. At the very least, the guy’s judgement is so bad, you really DO have to question his competency as a teacher…at worst, who knows. As a father, my “radar” for creepy sexual advances would definitely be set off by something like this.
Oh, but I know….anyone who doesn’t suscribe to your enlightened libertine world view is automatically invalidated as a legitimate voice in the debate. As long as adult material is being given to children with no restraint or consideration for their parents’ wishes…what the hell, right? After all, who am I to deny a 13 year old the “honesty” of cartoon characters discussing anal sex? With that kind of progress marching forward, I might as well just shut up and get out the way, huh?
09/21/07 at 11:57 am
“Ya all are missing the point…not if EIGHTBALL is appropriate material for a 13 year old, (for some it would be for others no), but that a teacher took it upon himself to judge if it was appropriate material for a 13 year old student of his.”
Right, and if that was wrong, let’s have it be known he was put on leave for that, and quit over that, and let’s be clear on the nature of the work in question, the fact that many feel it has merit and that there are all sorts of ways in which the severity of the material is on par with other assignments. It shouldn’t be a factor either way.
09/21/07 at 11:57 am
“a all are missing the point…not if EIGHTBALL is appropriate material for a 13 year old, (for some it would be for others no), but that a teacher took it upon himself to judge if it was appropriate material for a 13 year old student of his.”
Thanks, Snoid. You said it more succinctly that I ever could.
09/21/07 at 12:01 pm
But here’s a question to the fellow who feels that a nekkid leddy in any circumstance equals pure pure pornography: Have you read Ice Haven?
09/21/07 at 12:04 pm
I mean, I could give a kid ‘The Scarlet Letter’, or should I check with thier parents? After all, that has many a mention of sex! In the end, Ice Haven is not Penthouse, or even Lady Chatterley’s Lover.
Dan Clowes draws very creepy pictures. Amazing pictures, but very unsettling. Scarlet Letter and Catcher in the Rye you draw in your brain. Coupled with too many people’s aversions to comics, you get a clearer picture of the situation at hand.
09/21/07 at 12:04 pm
“Right, and if that was wrong, let’s have it be known he was put on leave for that, and quit over that, and let’s be clear on the nature of the work in question, the fact that many feel it has merit and that there are all sorts of ways in which the severity of the material is on par with other assignments. It shouldn’t be a factor either way.”
Tom, I’d have no problem with that. Also I feel Eightball #22 has merit myself. It truly is one of the best comics ever produced IMO, that however doesn’t change my mind about what was wrong with a teacher giving to a 13 year old student of his.
Mark
09/21/07 at 12:08 pm
“I mean, I could give a kid ‘The Scarlet Letter’, or should I check with thier parents? After all, that has many a mention of sex! In the end, Ice Haven is not Penthouse, or even Lady Chatterley’s Lover.”
You should NEVER be giving a kid that isn’t your own kid something to read without their parents knowledge, period. You have no right to decide what is right or wrong for someone else child to read, that is the parents job.
09/21/07 at 12:11 pm
“You should NEVER be giving a kid that isn’t your own kid something to read without their parents knowledge, period. You have no right to decide what is right or wrong for someone else child to read, that is the parents job.”
It’s depressing that this concept eludes so many people.
09/21/07 at 12:16 pm
1. The example you’re looking for is Passion of the Christ, Mark. Usually when I can make the arguments for a person better than they can it’s a sign I should back off, but let me run through some leftovers.
2. Frankly, I don’t believe you that your use of the word “slipped” was unintentional. My reading of your use of it has nothing to do with reading great comics, and everything to do with debating people who like to press cultural buttons when the severity of their arguments prove untenable.
3. Your response in terms of characterization of how people are arguing, that people are “rationalizing” and “slamming” is just too cretinous to get into. There are few enough people commenting on this thread that being able to count the ones expressing sympathy and restraint on one hand, given your loaded readings, is actually a high compliment and proves my point. Thank you!
4. All that libertine bullshit is hilarious given my conservative propers. Again, I reject the notion that your being a parent gives you special pride of place in the overall argument, any more than my pastoral work with kids and families discussing such issues invalidates your point of view. And of course, no one is suggesting you don’t have a legitimate, unique and compelling point of view being a parent who worries about these issues; they’re just not willing to cede all arguments in your favor.
5. The notion that I (or really, anyone) in any way am arguing from a position that is advocating for adult material being given to children with no restraint or consideration for their parents wishes is personally insulting, asinine and intellectually bankrupt. That’s in no way the point I’ve ever made, nor is it inherent in any position I’d advocate, and deep down, you know it.
But hey, keep demonizing and exaggerating the arguments of those with whom you disagree, Mark! Keep providing that model!
09/21/07 at 12:20 pm
[especially as it follow the cheapest of cheap ploys of “you people have no children, and therefore you cannot truly understand.”]
It’s not a cheap ploy at all. Twenty-five years ago I might have said, “Hey, I’m kid! I know what’s acceptable for me to read!” Now that I have kids, I don’t necessarily think that way. I’m more careful to think about the effect of things. What’s cheap are the comments about how a parents’ judgment not to expose their children to questionable content is shielding their kids from reality. Puh-lez. There’s an incredible amount of violence on TV (ever watch FOX during football season? Loaded with horror movie clips that I don’t think are appropriate for my kids). Kids see violence in the news, they go through shit at school with cliques, etc. Sure, they’re not dumb. But doesn’t mean I have to open the flood gates and let come what may.
09/21/07 at 12:20 pm
I can say that I was exposed to all sorts of material at school that was at odds with my family’s belief’s (up to and including being led in prayer in class at my (secular public) elementary school in the mid-’70s, and you know how we dealt with such issues in my family? We TALKED ABOUT STUFF. My parents were always willing to discuss any issue with me, and explain why they held their beliefs, and encouraged me to think for myself. That worked out pretty well for us. And to the best of my recollection, none of the four teachers (well…three teachers, one young student teacher)I can recall who interacted inappropriately with students while I was there ever deviated from their lesson plans.
09/21/07 at 12:22 pm
Teachers have taken up a responsibility to educate others children, and teachers have been giving intelligent mature books to thier students for ages, including The Scarlet Letter, Catcher in the Rye, and The Bible, probably one of the most violent popular books around.
Plus she’s 14 and a high school student, not 13. One shouldn’t overlook that news error.
Another issue is that people are already hating Ice Haven without reading it, or THINKING about it. Daniel Clowes is the Salinger of our time, writing honestly about youth without pandering or talking down. The teacher did not give porn, and if one considers it porn, one is clearly not reading hard enough.
Its not as if kids don’t know about this stuff. If anything, when they get intelligent mature books, they adress the issues the kids are dealing with better than most of the usual mush put on reading lists. But to the argument of wether or not the teacher should’ve given it…
– We can all be opposed to anything teachers give? Republican propaganda? Yaoi to a 14 year old? Sure, i’d be upset or outraged, but to make a national issue and fire a teacher over a very personal preference and moral code… Well, that is shameful.
To the snarky comment-
I think the true depressing thing is the people who wish to harken back to puritan terrirory of a shielded enviorment. Only in America. French children grow up with sexually explicit entertainment, and well… there is a country much healthier in that regard. Yes, its your parents job, but there is trust put into the teacher. This isn’t given out by a creepy fellow on the street, this isn’t shelved amongst the hustlers and the smokey old copies of even Kurtzman’s ‘Annie Fanny’. Nah, its given by a teacher and sold on the shelves of Barnes and Nobles, where any child can find it.
09/21/07 at 12:25 pm
By the way ‘We can all be opposed to anything a teacher gives’ should end with a period. Otherwise its sounds super snarky. And snarkers fail!
09/21/07 at 12:25 pm
I assume that the majority of people posting here are comic book fans. As I read the comments today, it seemed to me like we have all been caught up in the argument over whether or not the book itself was appropriate, and disregarding a question that affects comic fans more specifically. That is, how was this situation treated differently because the work in question was a comic book rather than prose? Of course, the father in question probably wouldn’t have been able to blow through A Tree Grows in Brooklyn or The Chocolate War (both books I read in 8th grade, one as an assignment and one on my own, but recommended by my teacher) fast enough to work up his outrage.
Or would he just not have been interested in giving a prose work this much scrutiny? Is it possible that, when he sees his daughter bring home a comic book, he automatically assumes it needed to be held to a higher standard of review? As a fan of the medium, this troubles me.
09/21/07 at 12:25 pm
Hi, I’m James Bucky Carter. I edited and wrote essays for _Building Literacy Connections with Graphic Novels_, a book that offers suggestions for how to use comics in the classroom. The book is actually listed in the New Hampshire Department of Education’s recent document on 21st century literacy skills.
On my own blog, I’ve written a reaction to the situation and offered some advice for teachers who might want to use comics in the classroom but are afraid to do so.
Here’s my blog, if anyone is a teacher or knows someone who might be interested:
http://www.ensaneworld.blogspot.com
09/21/07 at 12:26 pm
“You should NEVER be giving a kid that isn’t your own kid something to read without their parents knowledge, period. You have no right to decide what is right or wrong for someone else child to read, that is the parents job.”
I don’t give kids reading material, but my Sunday school teachers gave me books. My teachers did. My camp counselors did. My comic shop owner did. My debate coach did. My parents monitored that reading. What a depressing world you live in!
I applaud the parents in taking an interest in what their kids are reading. That’s the way it should work. In fact, I have no problems with the parents objecting. That’s their right to object. However, I’m baffled if nothing else comes out that this had to get to the level it did instead of “Okay, well, let’s try to find her something she can use to do the make-up work.”
I personally don’t think this guy should have been forced into a resignation based on what we know right now, and I strongly believe painting Eightball #22 as debased porno to press that argument is a great disservice to the truth and to art. But I don’t see a school make-up assignment as a secret passing on of material.
09/21/07 at 12:27 pm
Here’s a thought that will perhaps make this even clearer.
The reading that was given to the student was not on the reading list. The question is raised then would a teacher be disciplined for making a recommendation that is not on the reading list. If the answer is “yes” then it would not matter whether it was objectionable or not. The teacher would still be subject to disciplinary action.
09/21/07 at 12:27 pm
Alex is right. It’s the pictures. I haven’t read this particular issue, but I’ve read a bunch of Clowe’s other work and none of it could be considered obscene or pornographic. Is his work adult? Yes. Too adult for a 13-year old? Maybe. Do her parents have the right to object to their daughter being given this material without their approval? Absolutely. But it’s “Dad’s” hyperbolic statements that it’s pornography and that this teacher’s ill-advised assignment should prevent him from ever teaching again that is provoking this reaction against him.
But how does “Dad” come to see this comic as pornography? Now, I don’t know “Dad,” but I can only imagine he came across the book and saw those “naughty pictures.” As has been mentioned so many times, there’s plenty of prose available in the high schools that has much stronger content than Eightball, but there’s no accompanying visual content. That visual content is the only thing that could make you think of the material as pornographic. The same as in the Gordon Lee case; how could anyone see “The Salon” as obscene, save for the drawings of Picasso’s flaccid penis?
09/21/07 at 12:31 pm
“It’s not a cheap ploy at all. Twenty-five years ago I might have said, ‘Hey, I’m kid! I know what’s acceptable for me to read! Now that I have kids, I don’t necessarily think that way. I’m more careful to think about the effect of things.”
That’s not what I’m getting at. I know that the change in roles brings with it a different and perhaps wiser point of view. As I’ve stated multiple times now, I respect that point of view. Its logic should be self-evident.
It’s a cheap ploy in how it’s presented as an automatic, dismissive invalidation of other points of view, and how it presents itself as an hysterical defense against an assault on a parents right to be concerned and set boundaries that no one is making.
09/21/07 at 12:34 pm
“The reading that was given to the student was not on the reading list. The question is raised then would a teacher be disciplined for making a recommendation that is not on the reading list. If the answer is ‘yes’ then it would not matter whether it was objectionable or not. The teacher would still be subject to disciplinary action.”
YES! I agree with this. Which is why it’s unnecessary and even damaging to have it presented in the press and by the parents as meritless porno, or in any way have perceptions of the content fuel the outcome.
09/21/07 at 12:35 pm
If the teacher wanted to seduce a student, and was using Daniel Clowes to do so, he has a lot to learn…
And yeah, I agree with Spurgeon. No reason not having children should stop us from thinking common sense. If anything else , being a parent COULD make one over protective…
[Ahhh! Ahh! See what I did there?]
09/21/07 at 12:41 pm
I feel sympathy for everyone involved – including the parents. I don’t think the teacher had any ulterior motives by giving this girl the book, but I can understand the objection the parents had over this book. My own parents would have reacted exactly like these parents if a teacher had given me a copy of this comic. I was raised in a very religious home. There was a lot of stuff out there that I wasn’t allowed to read, watch, or see.
For instance, I wasn’t allowed to see Star Wars when it first came out.
My parents are good people. They only did this type of stuff because they truly loved us and they believed they were doing the right thing. They’ve mellowed out in their old age and I doubt they would be as strict today as they were when I was a kid.
I can only assume the same is true with this girl’s parents. If they didn’t give two shits about her, they wouldn’t care what she brought home to read. I think the girl’s parents reacted the way they did because they love her and care deeply about the person she will grow up to be. I for one have the utmost respect for that. I don’t agree with them, but I respect them. Too many parents today don’t care enough about their kids or what type of people they will eventually grow up to be.
09/21/07 at 12:48 pm
I think anyone can disagree with whatever they want. Its when someone loses thier means of putting food on the table that the trouble begins. The might care about her, but things are not going as well for the human being who lost his job due to this personal opinion.
09/21/07 at 1:04 pm
Alex, it’s not a matter of personal opinion; it’s a policy issue. The teacher didn’t follow protocol regarding a questionble book. That’s what got him in trouble. Bad judgment. Like some folks have noted, whether it’s porn or not is moot. I love comics and see nothing wrong in showing nudity as it applies to a story, or just an appreciation of the human form. (Like someone mentioned, Europeans don’t have hang ups about nudity.) But the teacher should have consulted with the parent/s or someone else at the school. That, I think, is the bottom line.
It seems like he’s a young guy–the article says he’s been teaching for about a year. He’ll find his way to being a teacher again. The fact that he resigned instead of being fired goes a long way in education circles. He may have to move out of Connecticut, but there’s gonna be a school out there that would probably appreciate his efforts to encourage a student to read through a graphic medium. (In 1983, my mom, a Polish immigrant, read an article in the Hardford Courant that comics can making reading enjoyable for kids, who would presumably eventually “graduate” to novels and such. Well, it worked for me–and I still read comics, too!)
09/21/07 at 1:04 pm
“I don’t give kids reading material, but my Sunday school teachers gave me books. My teachers did. My camp counselors did. My comic shop owner did. My debate coach did. My parents monitored that reading. What a depressing world you live in!”
Tom, I live in the real world, and today that means you can’t give a child a comic with a boobie in it without expecting something like this to happen.
My parents did the same for me as I do for my own son, but things ain’t what they use to be.
For the record I don’t think the guy should have lost his job over this, but again it is reality of how things are today.
09/21/07 at 1:11 pm
“Here’s a thought that will perhaps make this even clearer.
The reading that was given to the student was not on the reading list. The question is raised then would a teacher be disciplined for making a recommendation that is not on the reading list. If the answer is “yes” then it would not matter whether it was objectionable or not. The teacher would still be subject to disciplinary action. ”
I don’t know enough details to make any sort of judgment call on this case. But I think the idea that a teacher shouldn’t be able to recommend any book that isn’t on a course’s reading list is a bit wrong-headed.
Reading lists can be pretty narrow, so I was happy to have teachers who encouraged me to seek out books, movies or articles that I might enjoy, and that complimented the work we studied in class. It helped foster my love of reading outside of the classroom.
09/21/07 at 1:18 pm
snoid, I understand, and I feel the same way about the way this is different now. I was just alarmed you made it a prescriptive!
09/21/07 at 1:20 pm
[NOTE: Crossposted from this thread (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/09/19/porn-comic-revealedeigthball/)
to address a comment made by usrngrx on both that one and this one]
Matterconsumer says:
“Because what’s more likely to stick in the minds of the average person who read the newspaper article is that the CBLDF supports teachers giving sexually explicit material to 13 year olds. And then when the average person reflects on why the teacher gave the 13 year old sexually explicit material it’s not going to lead to either a favorable disposition toward the teacher or CBLDF.”
That’s a leap of logic that has nothing to do with what I actually said. If you check the article, I described the book, I explained Daniel Clowes in context, and I described how the graphic novel medium functions. And for the record, Eightball #22 does not contain any sexually explicit material.
My statement: “Frankly, I find the fact that somebody has left their job over this particular work deeply troubling.” Means exactly what it means. It means that it is troubling that this book, which has won several major awards and is recognized for its literary merits, should be the cause of someone losing their job. It casts no judgment upon the parents in this matter, who were well within their rights to bring this to the school’s attention. Similarly, it does not show a sympathy towards the teacher.
usrngrx says:
“Charles Brownstein spoke all through the article and even wrote on blogs about this article that it is a grave injustice that a teacher resigned over assigning a Daniel Clowes comic. The CBLDF clearly feels that this course of events is completely innocent. Clearly, the CBLDF and Charles Brownstein have no problem exposing you children to this type of material and don’t feel there is any need to approve reading material before handing it out to students.”
This is another baseless and damaging assertion that bears no relationship to anything that I actually said. I never stated that this was a grave injustice. I don’t have enough information to say one way or another whether this course of events is completely innocent. No one relying upon the news coverage of this event does.
What I do have, per the news coverage, is the knowledge that this matter is being investigated by Guilford police. That places this incident outside the realm of an internal school matter and into the realm of being a possible criminal matter.
In all matters related to the justice system, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty, which is why I called for people to stop accusing the teacher of harmful motives. We simply don’t know enough to call this person’s character or motives into question, much less pass judgment on them. Doing so with the information we have is harmful and does go against the legal presumption of innocence. This isn’t a matter for Internet court, it’s a matter for the justice system.
I think everyone can agree that this is an unfortunate event. I think that vilifying either the teacher or the parents at this point is wrong.
Likewise, I think vilifying the book as pornographic or obscene is also wrong. Whether it is appropriate to this particular teenager is nobody’s business but the parents of that teenager. Whether it is appropriate for teen readers is a topic for open debate, although authoritive sources, notably School Library Journal, seem to think that it is.
I understand that this is a topic that arouses passion, but in matters of law, passion must be submissive to fact. Once this left the principal’s desk and hit the police’s desk, this became a matter of law. As such, we should let the law run its course and stop assigning motives when we just don’t know enough to do so. Right or wrong, a life is at stake. We should be respectful of that fact and leave the discovery of motive to the professionals.
09/21/07 at 1:30 pm
I’m just going to throw this out here: Some parents will always freak out when they find anything with nude content in their child’s possession. Period.
Case in point: My mother’ curiosity finally got the better of her one day about three years after I started reading comics, and she went into my room and started flipping through my comics. When I arrived home that day, I was subjected to a screeching that I had never endured before. The comic in question? Neil Gaiman and Dave McKean’s Black Orchid. It’s crime? Naked ladies.
My age at the time? 18.
09/21/07 at 2:06 pm
“I’m just going to throw this out here: Some parents will always freak out when they find anything with nude content in their child’s possession. Period.”
I think the complaints go far beyond the nudity. Others have documented some of the pretty dark areas the book gets into. The guy didn’t exactly hand the kid a copy of the National Geographic.
09/21/07 at 2:33 pm
If a teacher assigned my thirteen year old to read ANYTHING with the title “Needledick The Bugfucker”, I’D lead the charge for his dismissal.
I wouldn’t want my kids to read anything by Daniel Clowes. His popularity with the press, the public, and Comic Fandom, and what they finds acceptable doesn’t sway my view in the least.
I read loads of Clowes’ work early on. I no longer do or would. I find his world view negative and debased, and while it’s perfect for the cynical hero-eschewing hip cognescenti who love Peter Bagge, Joe Matt, etc.,etc., I’d be concerned about ANY adult who would give it to ANY kid.
And by the way (to parents & non-parents posting here) some people don’t automatically allow their kids to see PG-13 movies, even if they ARE 13.
09/21/07 at 2:35 pm
What does Needledick the Bugfucker have to do with anything?
09/21/07 at 2:36 pm
Mark,
I honestly think you have zero knowledge of any of the books/magazines you are talking about.
For one thing, national geographic sometimes publishes photos of NAKED or PARTIALLY NUDE PEOPLE.
And they report on “dark stuff,” like death, disaters, plane crashes:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/seconds/episodes.html
09/21/07 at 2:36 pm
But have you yourself read it Mark?
The next paragraph has some spoilers…
I’m wondering if the father read it either, or did he just open it and see a bewb, because really, I just reread the book, and its sadder more than anything else. Its about being lonely as a child, and the peeping tom is a sexually curious 10 year old boy. 8 1/2 had the same kind of kid, and it is hardly porn. Yes it is all about opinion, because you can’t call this porn–> http://www.tcj.com/journalista/ [do word find, pornographic comic book to see the image.].
And if dark areas are enough to keep a book out of a child’s hands, lets burn Anna Karenina, Les Miserables, anything from Charles Dickens, Lolita, and even Maus. Those books would give any theoretical kid the willies.
09/21/07 at 2:37 pm
And yes, our beloved Needledick wasn’t assigned. Ice Haven was. Needle Dick isn’t what got Daniel Clowes a job and the New York Times, its his more serious stuff.
09/21/07 at 2:40 pm
“I’d be concerned about ANY adult who would give it to ANY kid.”
I am concerned about ANY adult who thinks giving, say, Ghost World to a seventeen year kid is a sign of a mental problem.
09/21/07 at 2:49 pm
“What does Needledick the Bugfucker have to do with anything?”
I think everyone just likes typing the words “Needledick Bugfucker”
needledick bugfucker
needledick bugfucker
needledick bugfucker
09/21/07 at 2:50 pm
“I read loads of Clowes’ work early on. I no longer do or would. I find his world view negative and debased, and while it’s perfect for the cynical hero-eschewing hip cognescenti who love Peter Bagge, Joe Matt, etc.,etc., ”
This made me laugh, thanks Jim!
09/21/07 at 2:59 pm
“And yes, our beloved Needledick wasn’t assigned. Ice Haven was. Needle Dick isn’t what got Daniel Clowes a job and the New York Times, its his more serious stuff.”
Yeah but as we know those New Times types are all part of cynical hero-eschewing hip cognescenti mob. If only Jim Lee would get one of those NYT stripes then we’d see some uplifting art.
needledick bugfucker
needledick bugfucker
needledick bugfucker
09/21/07 at 2:59 pm
“I read loads of Clowes’ work early on. I no longer do or would. I find his world view negative and debased, and while it’s perfect for the cynical hero-eschewing hip cognescenti who love Peter Bagge, Joe Matt, etc.,etc., I’d be concerned about ANY adult who would give it to ANY kid.’
Three cheers for Jim. You nailed it, my friend. NAILED it.
09/21/07 at 3:02 pm
Mark…and? what does his thoughts on Clowes have to do with anything?
09/21/07 at 3:04 pm
My mistake, Tom—I misread the text at Comic Reporter, and thought that WAS in #22. Please replace my comment’s reference to “Needledick The Bugfucker” with the actual issue #22 content as described posts above. Now re-read my comment. There.
09/21/07 at 3:06 pm
And “snoid’, since you CALL yourself “snoid”, I’m sure my comments WOULD make you laugh.
09/21/07 at 3:12 pm
The guy didn’t exactly hand the kid a copy of the National Geographic.
Mark, I hope you are being ironic here, because NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC is how most of us kids of a certain age learned what real naked people (brown division) looked like. And it wasn’t just woo-woos…it was PEE PEES. In fact, I still remember my 10 year old shock at a pictorial on some New Guinea tribe that somehow tied their franks and beans up with bamboo shoots, leaving their private area looking something like a birthday streamer!
By your criteria here, my ‘rents should have been reported to child services for letting me see this horrific material.
FWIW, I think the teacher made an error in judgment. I don’t think anyone reasonable is disputing that. He showed poor form and should have been reprimanded. or suspended or punished in a way to reflect his offense…but losing his job seems harsh. and getting the POLICE involved? That is punitive and (in my humble opinion) over-reacting in a wildly inappropriate way.
09/21/07 at 3:23 pm
“And “snoid’, since you CALL yourself “snoid”, I’m sure my comments WOULD make you laugh.”
Look Jim, your thoughts on Clowes are meaningless concerning the issue at hand. My thoughts about Clowes are as meaningless also. I just found it funny you took shots at all them art comic lovers.
09/21/07 at 3:41 pm
He resigned because they had him cornered..he was guilty and should be fired
09/21/07 at 3:46 pm
“you should NEVER be giving a kid that isn’t your own kid something to read without their parents knowledge, period. You have no right to decide what is right or wrong for someone else child to read, that is the parents job.”
Basically, what you’re saying here is, “you should never send your child to school”. Because the school does not check with parents first before every single reading assignment.
Really, most of the books that teenagers are assigned to read in school are in fact adult books. Teenagers are ready for adult literature, period. Not only that, the school is the great setting to read adult literature because there are knowledgable adults there who can explain the content and explain it’s meaning in context.
The father is a fool if he doesn’t understand that.
09/21/07 at 3:49 pm
The place makes tcj.com look like a support group.
09/21/07 at 3:55 pm
“Basically, what you’re saying here is, “you should never send your child to school”. Because the school does not check with parents first before every single reading assignment.”
Yeah James that’s what I’m saying….we are not talking about SCHOOL BOARD APPROVED reading assignments, were talking about something no school board would ever approve for 13 or 14 year olds.
09/21/07 at 3:59 pm
“Teenagers are ready for adult literature, period.”
That’s a pretty blanket statment, face it not all teenagers are, but even so, don’t you think parents should decide that?
09/21/07 at 4:03 pm
Hello Everyone - Interesting to read all of your thoughts and assumptions in this situation.
I am the mother of this student. I can tell you the facts on our side of this, and you can make your judgment from there, but at least your facts will be right.
My daughter arrived in her English class on the second day of school, (the first day was used for books and roll taking ect)
Since she was not in the school system the year before she was not assigned a summer reading assignment before arriving in her new high school.
Her brand new English teacher asked her to stay after class so he could give her an assignment to read over the labor day long weekend and give him an oral report on the next school day. He gave her a choice of 5 books, 4 of the books were about civil war, the lone ranger and Tonto and military fighting. One book was about shooting pool, or so she thought - This would be Eightball (issue #22). The teacher pointed out eightball and told her this is the one he thought she would like the most. He also told her it might have a little bit of mature content in it.
She said okay and put the comic in her bag and off she went. - The comic stayed in her bag until Saturday when we were all driving in the car heading to a family picnic - My younger children and a friends child are in the backseat with my daughter and I hear a strange giggling coming from the back. Any parent knows the kind of giggling I’m talking about (the kind where you should immediately ask what’s going on). So I said to the group of children - “what’s so funny you guys!” So the kids reply - We are laughing at the reading assignment from her teacher - “The two kids are doing it” - So I said - Give me that!
I took the comic from the kids, and I started reading it.
Now let me tell you, I am not shocked by much, but the first page I turned to was the fluffy blue bunny page - and I was shocked. Why would this teacher think my 13 year old would want to read this! I could not imagine what this teacher had in mind with my daughter by giving her this comic. I was fearful that I knew what might be on his mind!
Also let me tell you that when I went to the police and the school, we were not on a witch-hunt - we weren’t out to get anyone fired and we were really hoping this was all a big mistake. We thought possibly that maybe some kid stuck this in his classroom as a joke and that happened to be the one she picked up thinking it was about playing pool.
I showed the school and the resource officer what was given to my daughter and they were very surprised, this is not part of the allowed reading material for teachers to give. They said thank you and we will be in touch later and let you know what we find out.
So the afternoon goes by and my Daughter gets off the bus, I ask her what happened in his class that day and she tells me that - He pulled her aside after class and asked her how reading that comic made her feel.
She told him that she really thought it was disgusting and inappropriate and he said yes, I told you it might be a little bit mature.
Well when I heard this, I was really disgusted. What can I assume in this day and age was this teachers motives?? I put her back in the car and I went back down to the school. I asked to see the principal again and I told him what was said to her after class.
Now I want to say - this next piece of information was just what I was told by the school - I didn’t hear the teacher say this personally.
I was told that the teacher gave it to my daughter because he thought she would like the material. But - He said he had it as a college graphic Adult reading assignment in a college class several years before.
That was a college class he signed up for and he knew the course material. Not something handed to him by a teacher in high school and told to read.
`Again, I would like to STRONGLY attest to the fact that I am not against mature reading material being discussed in a classroom setting. I have no problems with nudity, violence, or any other topic discussed in a setting that promotes learning. Had this piece of material been given to the class as a whole as an assignment on modern day graphic novels and the literary benefits of them, there would be no problem.
There would be no problem because it would be part of a curriculum, clearly meant for learning.
Had the teacher suggested this graphic novel to my daughter, advising her that it is of mature content, and asking her to obtain it on her own with her parents consent, then I would have no problem with it.
This is where I have a problem. This teacher gave my daughter, and ONLY my daughter, a graphic novel of mature nature, without the knowledge of the administration, as an extra curricular assignment. This was done after class to my 13-year-old daughter. Yes she was 13 at the time of the incident. She has since turned 14. That may help to alleviate any confusion about her age. In dealing with these situations, parents these days can’t take chances. I will never know this teachers true intent, but I do know that he is at least guilty of extremely bad judgment.
I do not have the blind faith to assume that everything is OK. My duty is to protect my children. I will not compromise that.
09/21/07 at 4:33 pm
Whoa.
09/21/07 at 4:43 pm
Danielle:
Thank you for posting your side of this. I have taken the liberty of deleting your double posting.
I think now that everyone knows the actual facts of the case, at least from one side, we need to tone down the rhetoric just a bit. From here on I’ll be looking very carefully at the comments posted and deleting any that make wild asusmptions.
09/21/07 at 4:44 pm
Bravo, Danielle. It would be great if your entire post made it to ALL the discussion boards heatedly debating this topic.
09/21/07 at 4:51 pm
I’m not seeing either posting now, Heidi.
Danielle, thank you for taking the time to share that information, particularly how you’re making distinctions according to how this book was assigned, which is an angle I hadn’t fully considered.
09/21/07 at 4:52 pm
Wait, now I am.
09/21/07 at 4:53 pm
“He pulled her aside after class and asked her how reading that comic made her feel.”
I assume that he did this because the book is emotionally harrowing. After reading it, it would be VERY important for a young person to talk about how it made them feel.
It’s also very important to note that the Ice Haven story from that issue of Eightball happens to be one of the most important literary works of the past decade. Any debate on the subject that leaves that fact out would be terribly skewed.
09/21/07 at 4:58 pm
“I do not have the blind faith to assume that everything is OK. My duty is to protect my children. I will not compromise that.”
Sounds a little bit what I was getting at in my posts (being suspicious of the teacher’s motives)…which looks to be completely vindicated.
Thanks for posting, Danielle. There’s a bunch of us parents out here that have sympathy toward your situation.
09/21/07 at 5:00 pm
The teacher is of course, sort of an idiot to assign a book like that without really preparing the student for what they were about to read.
09/21/07 at 5:05 pm
It’s probably also important to remember that the mother’s story of what happened, how the teacher presented the book and what he said, is not her own first-hand knowledge. This may not be the way it really happened at all.
09/21/07 at 5:05 pm
I think the general idiocy of the teacher’s decision is something on which we can all agree.
09/21/07 at 5:10 pm
“I think the general idiocy of the teacher’s decision is something on which we can all agree.”
Well, Kristen, for one, gave the impression she didn’t think so:
“Now, perhaps Nate Fisher was a little precipitious in giving it to a 9th grader, but advanced material gets given to advanced students all the time to challenge them, and the difference of one grade is reasonable.
The material is not pornographic. He wasn’t asking her to read a stack of old Playboys. The assignment was to read material of a challenging nature. (Let’s also note that the girl is 14, and not 13 as seen in this article.) If the parents object to material, I’m sure they had recourse that included asking him to change the material before trying to have him fired. There are many great works of literature that reference sex, nudity, and rape without being porn, and while it is certainly the parents right to object to it, it’s not appropriate to decide that the teacher not be allowed to teach because YOU object to it.”
I don’t see a whole lot of condemnation of the teacher’s decision there.
09/21/07 at 5:18 pm
There is an implied complicity in what is ‘OK’ in the world when you hand reading/visual material to a young person, and comment that they would be interested in it.
A male authority figure handing a 13 year old girl material with implied rape and ‘peeping tom’ harassing behavior towards a naked woman, depicted in ironic, humorous terms… that can be quite the mixed message to a young girl.
It can imply abusive, sexually motivated behavior is acceptable, intellectual and friendly. Really the wrong message.
I am a fan of Clowes and of comix. Getting the real, detailed information from the girl’s mother puts much of this case in clear perspective.
There’s scotch in the cabinet - doesn’t mean the kids should be drinking it from your cup.
09/21/07 at 5:19 pm
“He pulled her aside after class and asked her how reading that comic made her feel.”
I assume that he did this because the book is emotionally harrowing. After reading it, it would be VERY important for a young person to talk about how it made them feel.
It’s also very important to note that the Ice Haven story from that issue of Eightball happens to be one of the most important literary works of the past decade. Any debate on the subject that leaves that fact out would be terribly skewed.
——————————
You read the mom’s account, and THAT’s what you think the teacher was getting at?
09/21/07 at 5:23 pm
All I can say is that the behavior displayed by the teacher in question is at least 50 percent LESS sexually predatory than that displayed by most of the young male teachers I had at my tony private school a decade ago, and they were never even given slaps on the wrist.
Maybe that’s why this seems so extreme to me–I guess I assume that male teachers always prey upon their female students (commenting on the length of their skirts, asking them explicit questions about activities with their boyfriends, looking them up and down while smirking), and it’s always ignored by the students and administration, the latter of which regards it as a funny joke. If a teacher had asked me how I felt about a book I’d read, I would’ve regarded him as the most innocent, caring, and clean-minded of all my teachers.
09/21/07 at 5:29 pm
Mark, I hate to break it to you, but thinking something was not smart and condemnation to a measure that satisfies you are kind of different things.
09/21/07 at 6:25 pm
Danielle, thanks for sharing. I understand your reaction to the situation. Hopefully, the investigation will be forthcoming and effective. Hopefully it will make it clear as to whether the teacher was exercising poor judgement or if it was something worse.
I wish your daughter well and hope that her peers and the community will treat her and your family with respect and understanding.
09/21/07 at 6:45 pm
[…] When we assume… Filed under: Decency flaps — davidpwelsh @ 5:48 pm The mother of the now-14-year-old girl at the center of the situation in the Connecticut high school visits The Beat to present her side of the story, which is really, really welcome, given some of the assumptions that were flying around. […]
09/21/07 at 6:51 pm
Dear usrngrx,
“What’s next, shall teachers hold kids after class and give them additional assignments in the proper way to give oral sex, and than ask for a demonstrat