Comments on: Would cheering up sell more comics? http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/ The News Blog of Comics Culture Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:04:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: retro clothing http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-678841 Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:14:52 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-678841 Retro clothing is the bomb! My favorite place to find it is Goodwill or any thrift store. Ebay is also a great place to find what you are looking for. Retro clothing is the bomb! My favorite place to find it is Goodwill or any thrift store. Ebay is also a great place to find what you are looking for.

]]> by: BradyDale http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-490688 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:18:56 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-490688 I've been reading a lot of old comics recently and, while I enjoy them, they are also sort of boring. They just aren't as deep as the current crop. There needs to be a way to get the fun bright stuff out to kids and the deeper stuff to us grown-ups. We need spinner racks again, but the Spinner RAcks probably don't really need anything from the MAX line, for example... The point about villains not really being important is dead on, though, and that's frustrating to me. This whole bit with THE HOOD organizing villains now in New Avengers... I mean, why didn't he do that last year during Civil War? It seems like the villains just sort of sat it out, which makes no sense. I’ve been reading a lot of old comics recently and, while I enjoy them, they are also sort of boring. They just aren’t as deep as the current crop. There needs to be a way to get the fun bright stuff out to kids and the deeper stuff to us grown-ups. We need spinner racks again, but the Spinner RAcks probably don’t really need anything from the MAX line, for example…

The point about villains not really being important is dead on, though, and that’s frustrating to me. This whole bit with THE HOOD organizing villains now in New Avengers… I mean, why didn’t he do that last year during Civil War? It seems like the villains just sort of sat it out, which makes no sense.

]]> by: Jim Shelley http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-489570 Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:47 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-489570 So, 60's/70's Done In One style of stories are more attractive to kids than today's decompressed, grim and gritty comics - who would have thought that? http://www.FlashbackUniverse.com So, 60’s/70’s Done In One style of stories are more attractive to kids than today’s decompressed, grim and gritty comics - who would have thought that?

http://www.FlashbackUniverse.com

]]> by: The Four Color Media Monitor http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-488275 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:34:09 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-488275 <strong>When the villains go MIA...</strong> A writer for ICV2 (via The Beat blog) talks about how Marvel's villains have become almost completely absent lately... When the villains go MIA…

A writer for ICV2 (via The Beat blog) talks about how Marvel’s villains have become almost completely absent lately…

]]> by: Doctor Normal http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-488098 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:27:13 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-488098 To my own surprise, I am coming to the conclusion that Seduction of the Innocents and the coming of the Comics Code Authority are the reason Silver Age comic books were more fun than superhero comic books are now. Things in the U.S. are not worse now than they were then. Things here are quite good. And I can forget that we are in a war. I also think the similar imposition of restrictions by the technology of the time helped... for example with coloring. The thing that happens to bother me most about modern attempts to create comic books is the coloring. Modern comic book colorists are in general still struggling with the new freedom they have. To my own surprise, I am coming to the conclusion that Seduction of the Innocents and the coming of the Comics Code Authority are the reason Silver Age comic books were more fun than superhero comic books are now. Things in the U.S. are not worse now than they were then. Things here are quite good. And I can forget that we are in a war.

I also think the similar imposition of restrictions by the technology of the time helped… for example with coloring. The thing that happens to bother me most about modern attempts to create comic books is the coloring. Modern comic book colorists are in general still struggling with the new freedom they have.

]]> by: Monkey See http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-486825 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:26:05 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-486825 That's a good point. In the past comics were considered all ages by default and the adult titles were only in the direct sales stores. But nowadays the adult titles are the norm (corresponding to the entire industry having retreated to the direct market) with entire special "kids" books being marginalized to imprints, seemingly only to exist to keep some watchdog group happy somewhere. Mainstream comics are doing a great job currently selling to the market created 30 years ago. But who is creating the market that will exist 30 years from now? That’s a good point. In the past comics were considered all ages by default and the adult titles were only in the direct sales stores. But nowadays the adult titles are the norm (corresponding to the entire industry having retreated to the direct market) with entire special “kids” books being marginalized to imprints, seemingly only to exist to keep some watchdog group happy somewhere.

Mainstream comics are doing a great job currently selling to the market created 30 years ago. But who is creating the market that will exist 30 years from now?

]]> by: Donnie http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-485857 Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:09:08 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-485857 Was it <a href="http://www.superherostuff.com/characters/Avengers_JLA/images/marvel_head_shots_t_shirt_2.jpg" rel="nofollow">this</a> shirt? The first 2 are Byrne, but I dunno about the others. Who in the big 2 writes comics for kids anymore? By that I mean, with them as the main target for an audience? And by that I also mean comics that sell well. Yes, DC and Marvel have kids lines, but where are they in terms of sales? At the bottom. When we read comics in the 70s and 80s, they were made for us. At least, I see them that way, looking back. And today, they're still being written for us. I'm not saying that today's books are inaccessible to kids, but they're sure a lot less fun. It's like what Spurgeon said a while back wondering what a kids would think about buying a comics called COUNTDOWN PRESENTS THE SEARCH FOR RAY PALMER: WILDSTORM. Bo-ring! Was it this shirt? The first 2 are Byrne, but I dunno about the others.

Who in the big 2 writes comics for kids anymore? By that I mean, with them as the main target for an audience? And by that I also mean comics that sell well. Yes, DC and Marvel have kids lines, but where are they in terms of sales? At the bottom.

When we read comics in the 70s and 80s, they were made for us. At least, I see them that way, looking back. And today, they’re still being written for us. I’m not saying that today’s books are inaccessible to kids, but they’re sure a lot less fun. It’s like what Spurgeon said a while back wondering what a kids would think about buying a comics called COUNTDOWN PRESENTS THE SEARCH FOR RAY PALMER: WILDSTORM. Bo-ring!

]]> by: Torsten Adair http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483885 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:52:33 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483885 Superheroes are grim. I just read Marvel's Silent War, and was disgusted by the climax. I suspect that Marvel will have an upcoming event where the heroes will discover the abuses of power, Iron Man will suffer for his Good Intentions, and the public will forget their stupid mistakes. Or the governmment could easily outlaw everyone, ending in the gritty future shown in The Uncanny X-Men #141. Yes, New York City is safe and clean and almost clear of it's bankruptcy. But do people notice the plethora of security cameras? The soldiers at Grand Central? The random announcements on the subway, alerting us that large bags and containers are subject to search by the NYPD? I'm a New Yorker, so I tolerate it, but I don't ignore it. Which is why I loathe orange clothing. I enjoy DMZ not because of the civil war aspects, but because of the humanity depicted. That's what heroism is about: overcoming adversity. Storytelling is about making people believe in imaginary concepts, like Santa Claus and Freedom. Superheroes are grim. I just read Marvel’s Silent War, and was disgusted by the climax. I suspect that Marvel will have an upcoming event where the heroes will discover the abuses of power, Iron Man will suffer for his Good Intentions, and the public will forget their stupid mistakes. Or the governmment could easily outlaw everyone, ending in the gritty future shown in The Uncanny X-Men #141.
Yes, New York City is safe and clean and almost clear of it’s bankruptcy. But do people notice the plethora of security cameras? The soldiers at Grand Central? The random announcements on the subway, alerting us that large bags and containers are subject to search by the NYPD? I’m a New Yorker, so I tolerate it, but I don’t ignore it. Which is why I loathe orange clothing.
I enjoy DMZ not because of the civil war aspects, but because of the humanity depicted. That’s what heroism is about: overcoming adversity. Storytelling is about making people believe in imaginary concepts, like Santa Claus and Freedom.

]]> by: Monkey See http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483575 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:53:19 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483575 I think many of the modern "painted" covers are very bland and unattractive compared to the fun pop art stylings of yesteryear. I go into the comic shop and the Marvel section is just this large muddy blur of Photoshop and Painter images with nothing grabbing my attention. I'm a big fan of the amazing painted covers of the old pulp magazines and said on a number of occasions a few years back how I wish more comics had painted covers. Now I regret my wish as the current crop of heavily worked cover images have turned the New Release section into a bore. I'm tired of serious, self-important, "mature" comics and their yawn-worthy cover adornments. I just want them to be fun again. I think many of the modern “painted” covers are very bland and unattractive compared to the fun pop art stylings of yesteryear. I go into the comic shop and the Marvel section is just this large muddy blur of Photoshop and Painter images with nothing grabbing my attention.

I’m a big fan of the amazing painted covers of the old pulp magazines and said on a number of occasions a few years back how I wish more comics had painted covers. Now I regret my wish as the current crop of heavily worked cover images have turned the New Release section into a bore. I’m tired of serious, self-important, “mature” comics and their yawn-worthy cover adornments. I just want them to be fun again.

]]> by: Jesse Post http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483538 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:19:29 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483538 I'm not surprised that a kid would be more attracted to Silver Age comics than modern ones (even though this anecdote doesn't prove that he actually compared the two). As a kid, those were the comics I was attracted to because they were fun, simple, and fired the imagination with possibility. As an adult I like things more complex, sophisticated, and relevant to what I go through (that's the fun of fantasy for adults). Most of those comics have grown up to meet my needs, which is nice, but at the expense of younger readers' needs. I think the fact that the kid saw bagging comics in a comic book store as a necessary evil to get his toy next door says a lot more about the state of the industry than anything else I've read in a while. I’m not surprised that a kid would be more attracted to Silver Age comics than modern ones (even though this anecdote doesn’t prove that he actually compared the two).

As a kid, those were the comics I was attracted to because they were fun, simple, and fired the imagination with possibility. As an adult I like things more complex, sophisticated, and relevant to what I go through (that’s the fun of fantasy for adults). Most of those comics have grown up to meet my needs, which is nice, but at the expense of younger readers’ needs.

I think the fact that the kid saw bagging comics in a comic book store as a necessary evil to get his toy next door says a lot more about the state of the industry than anything else I’ve read in a while.

]]> by: Steve Taylor http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483389 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:15:15 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-483389 Maybe it has something to do with the way comics are sold, as well. Publishers aren't necessarily trying to capture the attention of the "everyperson" passing by a news-stand, jam packed with other fare, on the street or a spinner rack in a drugstore. The focus is on the comics fan. It's almost as if the covers are printed in code these days,...aimed at a smaller audience. I've had people tell me that they can't figure out how to read a comic. Then there's the idea that (...some,...most,...) modern writers and artists are incapable of telling a story or drawing a picture that communicates that story, in my humble, ego-maniacal opinion. In the rare cases where an illustrator (Note that I did not say, cartoonist.) is capable of pulling off that remarkable feat, modern coloration and printing technology frequently make the books dark and difficult to see. Then,...there is that; modern concepts of good and evil, ain't what they used to be. Maybe it has something to do with the way comics are sold, as well. Publishers aren’t necessarily trying to capture the attention of the “everyperson” passing by a news-stand, jam packed with other fare, on the street or a spinner rack in a drugstore. The focus is on the comics fan. It’s almost as if the covers are printed in code these days,…aimed at a smaller audience. I’ve had people tell me that they can’t figure out how to read a comic. Then there’s the idea that (…some,…most,…) modern writers and artists are incapable of telling a story or drawing a picture that communicates that story, in my humble, ego-maniacal opinion. In the rare cases where an illustrator (Note that I did not say, cartoonist.) is capable of pulling off that remarkable feat, modern coloration and printing technology frequently make the books dark and difficult to see.
Then,…there is that; modern concepts of good and evil, ain’t what they used to be.

]]> by: Tinpan http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482889 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:18:35 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482889 In the DC Clothes stores here, ALL the art on tshirts and jackets and whatever they use is retro- only occassionally do you see a Jim Lee Superman drawing. And you know what else? They use ONLY retro art and the retro versions for the female characters. It's like the modern versions are too porn-y or something. In the DC Clothes stores here, ALL the art on tshirts and jackets and whatever they use is retro- only occassionally do you see a Jim Lee Superman drawing. And you know what else? They use ONLY retro art and the retro versions for the female characters. It’s like the modern versions are too porn-y or something.

]]> by: joffe http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482854 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:49:44 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482854 Ken, have you forgotten that we're currently in the middle of an incredibly unpopular, expensive and bloody war without an end in sight? That alone might have SOMETHING to do with modern times being described as "grim", not counting all the other obvious stuff going on. Sean, I agree that Marvel comics always had that extra edge of angst, even in the Silver Age. But I think its fair to say that edge was tempered with a layer of fun and fantasy that allowed it to be as escapist as it was relevant. I think its also fair to say that outside of a number of side titles, that layer is no longer a concern of the main publishers. I don't think we need a complete 180 back to the silver age, but the Marvel Zombies you mentioned as a modern comic still popular with the kids is far more goofy than it is angsty, despite the gore. Ken, have you forgotten that we’re currently in the middle of an incredibly unpopular, expensive and bloody war without an end in sight? That alone might have SOMETHING to do with modern times being described as “grim”, not counting all the other obvious stuff going on.

Sean, I agree that Marvel comics always had that extra edge of angst, even in the Silver Age. But I think its fair to say that edge was tempered with a layer of fun and fantasy that allowed it to be as escapist as it was relevant. I think its also fair to say that outside of a number of side titles, that layer is no longer a concern of the main publishers. I don’t think we need a complete 180 back to the silver age, but the Marvel Zombies you mentioned as a modern comic still popular with the kids is far more goofy than it is angsty, despite the gore.

]]> by: mpMann http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482498 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:10:38 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-482498 A few years back, my son, then aged 12 was captivated by the black and white Marvel Essentials collections.... but has no interest in contemorary superheroes today. A few years back, my son, then aged 12 was captivated by the black and white Marvel Essentials collections…. but has no interest in contemorary superheroes today.

]]> by: Rakarich http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481995 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:42:48 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481995 I believe the market has more diverse material (i.e. genre and age friendly) than it ever has in it's history. How is it not possible for someone who works in a LCS to feel "handicapped" (my wording, not his) in suggesting age/subject appropriate material? I believe the market has more diverse material (i.e. genre and age friendly) than it ever has in it’s history. How is it not possible for someone who works in a LCS to feel “handicapped” (my wording, not his) in suggesting age/subject appropriate material?

]]> by: Kevin Colden http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481924 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:55:03 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481924 I second Matt's statement. Joe, you have a point. The primary difference between comics in the Golden Age thru early 90's vs. comics today - and to give due credit this point was made to me by my friend/former teacher/seasoned comics writer Joe Edkin - is that comics aren't necessarily the best place to experience superheroes anymore. They used to be the ONLY place to. Up until the mid-90's or so, it was a rare thing to see a really good version of a superhero onscreen - I point you to nearly every live action TV show Marvel did in the 70's and 80's. Sure some of them had charm, but 70's stuntman Spidey vs. 00's CGI Spidey is mediocre vs. definitive. Today, they can duplicate the visuals from comics perfectly. I hear that after 20 years Batman will be able to turn his head in the next movie :) I second Matt’s statement.

Joe, you have a point. The primary difference between comics in the Golden Age thru early 90’s vs. comics today - and to give due credit this point was made to me by my friend/former teacher/seasoned comics writer Joe Edkin - is that comics aren’t necessarily the best place to experience superheroes anymore. They used to be the ONLY place to. Up until the mid-90’s or so, it was a rare thing to see a really good version of a superhero onscreen - I point you to nearly every live action TV show Marvel did in the 70’s and 80’s.

Sure some of them had charm, but 70’s stuntman Spidey vs. 00’s CGI Spidey is mediocre vs. definitive. Today, they can duplicate the visuals from comics perfectly. I hear that after 20 years Batman will be able to turn his head in the next movie :)

]]> by: Ken http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481918 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:52:15 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481918 Hey Heidi, I didn't read the link but "Retailer John Riley of Grasshopper’s Comics has a piece at ICv2 called “Sharpening the Sword–Where Are The Villains?” which suggests that since we’re living in grim times, the pervasive grimness of superhero comics may be hurting sales over all." I think his thesis is wrong from jump street. We're living in grim times? Crime is at 40 yr lows. Where is this grimness that comics claim to be reflecting? One would think NYC is still in "Death Wish" territory from the way comics portray the urban landscape, but last time I walked on 42nd street it was walking by the 24 hr starbucks en route to buying tickets to Young Frankenstein: The Musical. and you're right, a T Shirt with modern art would not be as cool. The heads you saw were probably drawn by Romita. Ken Hey Heidi, I didn’t read the link but

“Retailer John Riley of Grasshopper’s Comics has a piece at ICv2 called “Sharpening the Sword–Where Are The Villains?” which suggests that since we’re living in grim times, the pervasive grimness of superhero comics may be hurting sales over all.”

I think his thesis is wrong from jump street. We’re living in grim times? Crime is at 40 yr lows. Where is this grimness that comics claim to be reflecting? One would think NYC is still in “Death Wish” territory from the way comics portray the urban landscape, but last time I walked on 42nd street it was walking by the 24 hr starbucks en route to buying tickets to Young Frankenstein: The Musical.

and you’re right, a T Shirt with modern art would not be as cool. The heads you saw were probably drawn by Romita.

Ken

]]> by: Alan Coil http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481878 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:24:13 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481878 "...but it also struck us that it was the retro look of the characters that made them to classic." ----- I'd suggest just a bit more, that it was the retro look that brought back classic 'feelings', aka nostalgia, else Darwyn Cooke should be more well known than Frank Miller and Alan Moore. Sadly, he isn't. ===== ===== Rich Yan said: "But 1500 comic books were invisible to two people of vastly different ages standing no more than three feet away from them." ----- Perhaps they were expecting to see the comics displayed in a different manner. I can envision them looking for stacks of comics laid flat, 50 or 60 high, slightly uneven, slightly more atilt, ready to fall over the next time somebody bumped them. That's how I stored my comics when I was a kid. “…but it also struck us that it was the retro look of the characters that made them to classic.”
—–
I’d suggest just a bit more, that it was the retro look that brought back classic ‘feelings’, aka nostalgia, else Darwyn Cooke should be more well known than Frank Miller and Alan Moore. Sadly, he isn’t.
===== =====
Rich Yan said:
“But 1500 comic books were invisible to two people of vastly different ages standing no more than three feet away from them.”
—–
Perhaps they were expecting to see the comics displayed in a different manner. I can envision them looking for stacks of comics laid flat, 50 or 60 high, slightly uneven, slightly more atilt, ready to fall over the next time somebody bumped them. That’s how I stored my comics when I was a kid.

]]> by: Matt Maxwell http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481869 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:19:37 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481869 There should be no such thing as "civilians". This isn't to pick on you, Rich, as that term has been around for a long time. Comics readership shouldn't be a secret society. There should be no such thing as “civilians”. This isn’t to pick on you, Rich, as that term has been around for a long time. Comics readership shouldn’t be a secret society.

]]> by: Joe Helfrich http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481851 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:02:36 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/10/26/would-cheering-up-sell-more-comics/#comment-481851 But what would we have thought of that shirt in the late 70's and early 80's? And what will we think of it, and its counterpart with today's characters on it, in 20 years? But what would we have thought of that shirt in the late 70’s and early 80’s? And what will we think of it, and its counterpart with today’s characters on it, in 20 years?

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