Comments on: Pope searches for literary quality in comics http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/ The News Blog of Comics Culture Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:53:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: STWALLSKULL » Interesting Links: December 20, 2007 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-641223 Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:31:25 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-641223 [...] Pope searches for literary quality in comics from THE BEAT [...] […] Pope searches for literary quality in comics from THE BEAT […]

]]> by: Ulises http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-630664 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:01:27 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-630664 I agree with the writer of the blog piece. I think most of these comments are taking a very narrow sheltered view of literature and comics in general. Comic book writing is stuck in a weird puberty, unsure of what it wants to say and how to say it best. I agree with the writer of the blog piece. I think most of these comments are taking a very narrow sheltered view of literature and comics in general. Comic book writing is stuck in a weird puberty, unsure of what it wants to say and how to say it best.

]]> by: Ben99 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-630471 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:13:43 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-630471 Dan Clowes Chris Ware Ivan Brunetti Kevin H Jaime Hernandez Gilbert Hernandez Charles Burns Chester Brown Adrian Tomine Dan Clowes
Chris Ware
Ivan Brunetti
Kevin H
Jaime Hernandez
Gilbert Hernandez
Charles Burns
Chester Brown
Adrian Tomine

]]> by: Ford MF http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627394 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:51:10 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627394 Also yeah, the excellent Eric Shanower is right, Paul Pope isn't reading the right comics (or he's just an irretrievable snob). Also yeah, the excellent Eric Shanower is right, Paul Pope isn’t reading the right comics (or he’s just an irretrievable snob).

]]> by: Ford MF http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627392 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:49:45 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627392 Weird to wonder aloud where the literary quality in comics is, and then go on to name a string of absolute literary mediocrities as your high-water marks. Weird to wonder aloud where the literary quality in comics is, and then go on to name a string of absolute literary mediocrities as your high-water marks.

]]> by: Peter Krause http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627327 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:52:26 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627327 ouch! ouch!

]]> by: seth http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627199 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:25:38 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627199 moby dick is pretty rough. ZING! moby dick is pretty rough. ZING!

]]> by: Sean http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627094 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:50:51 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-627094 Oh, come on Tony. Moby Dick has at least 6% action, what with the long descriptions of the crew processing of blubber for oil and what not. That's some riveting shit, right there. Oh, come on Tony. Moby Dick has at least 6% action, what with the long descriptions of the crew processing of blubber for oil and what not. That’s some riveting shit, right there.

]]> by: Tony Millionaire http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626804 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:24:02 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626804 The Beat Says: 12/13/07 at 2:22 pm Moby-Dick is literature, too. So is War and Peace. Both feature lots of action. Not all literary fiction is imediately recognized as such. Heidi, did you ever read Moby Dick? 99% wordsmithery, 1% action. The Beat Says:
12/13/07 at 2:22 pm
Moby-Dick is literature, too. So is War and Peace. Both feature lots of action. Not all literary fiction is imediately recognized as such.

Heidi, did you ever read Moby Dick? 99% wordsmithery, 1% action.

]]> by: Daniel Mata http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626648 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:58:22 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626648 Then again, I should have read his whole blog and his response here before I commented. I'm clearly enjoying my toes now. Then again, I should have read his whole blog and his response here before I commented. I’m clearly enjoying my toes now.

]]> by: Daniel Mata http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626641 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:55:30 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626641 I think he's mostly asking, why aren't there literary writers in SUPERHERO comics from the big two instead of comics as a whole. The thing is, there are, and he's too lazy to look for them, just like 90% of all american comic book readers with the same complaint. I never expected him to be that ignorant of what the medium has to offer. I think he’s mostly asking, why aren’t there literary writers in SUPERHERO comics from the big two instead of comics as a whole.

The thing is, there are, and he’s too lazy to look for them, just like 90% of all american comic book readers with the same complaint. I never expected him to be that ignorant of what the medium has to offer.

]]> by: eric shanower http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626232 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:38:02 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626232 Well, I do admit not reading Paul Pope's whole blog. I just read the part on The Beat, so that's what I replied to. I'm afraid I'm too busy trying to be a literary cartoonist to click the link and read it all. Well, I do admit not reading Paul Pope’s whole blog. I just read the part on The Beat, so that’s what I replied to. I’m afraid I’m too busy trying to be a literary cartoonist to click the link and read it all.

]]> by: Joe Williams http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626025 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:59:03 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-626025 P'owned by P'Pope! Seriously, if one quote offends your sensibilities so much that you consider writing a scathing attack on the Intertubes then maybe you should actually read the damn thing to make sure what you're taking offense at is really what was meant. It's like if film critics watched 5 minutes from the middle of a movie and wrote an entire review. Maybe part of the problem of what Pope is addressing is that besides the aforementioned works of Barks (and maybe Frank King, Will Eisner a small handful of others), many comics artists from days gone by simply didn't have enough time or space to develop a subtle and rich story that would qualify it to be considered literary. Most artists of the past were limited to 1-22 page stories which often featured a corporate character who was strictly controlled by editorial. As the medium has progressed I think we're seeing a lot more of these types of works, though frankly many of the new works aspiring to be considered literature ring a little false like those films obviously designed to win the Oscar which are hailed by critics one year and all but forgotten a couple years down the road. While I'm here, I always wanted to let Mr. Pope how much I always wished he'd finish Smoke Navigator! "Clove cigarettes. She smoked clove cigarettes..." Beautiful stuff! And is the Car Crash story (either from DHP or Oni Double Feature, I forget which) going to be collected? I never got all the issues it ran in... P’owned by P’Pope! Seriously, if one quote offends your sensibilities so much that you consider writing a scathing attack on the Intertubes then maybe you should actually read the damn thing to make sure what you’re taking offense at is really what was meant. It’s like if film critics watched 5 minutes from the middle of a movie and wrote an entire review.

Maybe part of the problem of what Pope is addressing is that besides the aforementioned works of Barks (and maybe Frank King, Will Eisner a small handful of others), many comics artists from days gone by simply didn’t have enough time or space to develop a subtle and rich story that would qualify it to be considered literary. Most artists of the past were limited to 1-22 page stories which often featured a corporate character who was strictly controlled by editorial. As the medium has progressed I think we’re seeing a lot more of these types of works, though frankly many of the new works aspiring to be considered literature ring a little false like those films obviously designed to win the Oscar which are hailed by critics one year and all but forgotten a couple years down the road.

While I’m here, I always wanted to let Mr. Pope how much I always wished he’d finish Smoke Navigator! “Clove cigarettes. She smoked clove cigarettes…” Beautiful stuff! And is the Car Crash story (either from DHP or Oni Double Feature, I forget which) going to be collected? I never got all the issues it ran in…

]]> by: pulphope http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625928 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:49:00 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625928 Rather than resort to cheap ad hominems, jump to your simple straw-man conclusions, or put your words in my mouth, some of you might have sussed out my whole point if you actually read what I wrote. I clearly define "literary quality" in comics this way: "More stories with better art and better writing, always and forever more. Whether it's a serious meditation on the private life of a family or a madcap ruckus with kooky talking animals, all I care is that it's a comic story which is done well and it has lasting impact -- that's the literary quality I want to see in a comic." There is a subtle reference to Carl Barks in that passage. And J trizzo, whoever you are, if you think I am sitting on my ass, you are out of your f'n mind. Rather than resort to cheap ad hominems, jump to your simple straw-man conclusions, or put your words in my mouth, some of you might have sussed out my whole point if you actually read what I wrote. I clearly define “literary quality” in comics this way:

“More stories with better art and better writing, always and forever more. Whether it’s a serious meditation on the private life of a family or a madcap ruckus with kooky talking animals, all I care is that it’s a comic story which is done well and it has lasting impact — that’s the literary quality I want to see in a comic.”

There is a subtle reference to Carl Barks in that passage.

And J trizzo, whoever you are, if you think I am sitting on my ass, you are out of your f’n mind.

]]> by: michael http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625895 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:23:47 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625895 I disagree with what Pope says. Yes, good comics are desireable, but to say that prose literature and manga are the answers to look forward to as a model? Well, that's not only crazy, but contradictatory(sp) in my mind. I disagree with what Pope says. Yes, good comics are desireable, but to say that prose literature and manga are the answers to look forward to as a model? Well, that’s not only crazy, but contradictatory(sp) in my mind.

]]> by: jahfurry http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625889 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:18:16 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625889 C'mon people, i feel like writing a blog now against people especially professionals who SKIM and therefore miss da point... jeez, of course PP was being a bit dramatic and extreme to emphasize certain points, and he'd probably be the first to point out many other current graphic novels with literary quality or even race yo to it. The point is keep your eyes on the prize and all strive to raise the whole playing field. If everyone holds hands and hums, we could probably raise the entire field a half-inch... Heh. Anyhoo, Listing exceptions is an irrelevant defensive exercise in response to a call for excellence. That many are already heeding the call, is a good thing, besides the point, and not an effective rebuttal to a piece that was not a criticism but a reminder and call for greatness. No jazz musician gets insecure when someone asks where are the coltranes, where are the birds, its about remembering the heights and reaching for them C’mon people, i feel like writing a blog now against people especially professionals who SKIM and therefore miss da point… jeez, of course PP was being a bit dramatic and extreme to emphasize certain points, and he’d probably be the first to point out many other current graphic novels with literary quality or even race yo to it. The point is keep your eyes on the prize and all strive to raise the whole playing field. If everyone holds hands and hums, we could probably raise the entire field a half-inch… Heh. Anyhoo, Listing exceptions is an irrelevant defensive exercise in response to a call for excellence. That many are already heeding the call, is a good thing, besides the point, and not an effective rebuttal to a piece that was not a criticism but a reminder and call for greatness. No jazz musician gets insecure when someone asks where are the coltranes, where are the birds, its about remembering the heights and reaching for them

]]> by: David Uzumeri http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625739 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:55:14 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625739 I did read the whole article, but I have to admit I skimmed a little bit past the middle, which answers my complaints. This is my fault. I am shutting up now! I did read the whole article, but I have to admit I skimmed a little bit past the middle, which answers my complaints. This is my fault. I am shutting up now!

]]> by: Jamaal Thomas http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625688 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:29:05 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625688 People should really read Pope's entire post before commenting on a single passage that is taken out of context. He isn't saying that literary quality and great writing doesn't exist in comics, just that he wants to see it more. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that, especially since many of the examples listed above are comics that ceased publication quite a while ago. I think simplifying his argument into a "we need more pretension" one does him quite a disservice. People should really read Pope’s entire post before commenting on a single passage that is taken out of context. He isn’t saying that literary quality and great writing doesn’t exist in comics, just that he wants to see it more. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that, especially since many of the examples listed above are comics that ceased publication quite a while ago. I think simplifying his argument into a “we need more pretension” one does him quite a disservice.

]]> by: eric shanower http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625638 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:05:35 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625638 And for sheer beauty and power there's Lynda Barry's The Freddie Stories. And for sheer beauty and power there’s Lynda Barry’s The Freddie Stories.

]]> by: eric shanower http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625605 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:46:08 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/13/pope-searches-for-literary-quality-in-comics/#comment-625605 It seems to me that Paul Pope isn't reading the right comics. Walt Kelly and Carl Barks touch on the human condition consistently. David Sim unfolds filigreed themes throughout Cerebus--just not themes that a lot of people find palatable (and Dave Sim, though an excellent cartoonist, writes deplorable prose). From Hell by Moore and Campbell certainly sustains a theme and atmosphere. And if you want the "human condition" you don't have to look any farther than the Maggie stories by Jaime Hernandez. Where the hell has Paul Pope been looking? No one's hiding this stuff from him! It seems to me that Paul Pope isn’t reading the right comics. Walt Kelly and Carl Barks touch on the human condition consistently. David Sim unfolds filigreed themes throughout Cerebus–just not themes that a lot of people find palatable (and Dave Sim, though an excellent cartoonist, writes deplorable prose). From Hell by Moore and Campbell certainly sustains a theme and atmosphere. And if you want the “human condition” you don’t have to look any farther than the Maggie stories by Jaime Hernandez.

Where the hell has Paul Pope been looking? No one’s hiding this stuff from him!

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