Ohio Grandparent Rights…

- that Wertham depended upon an indolent and unorganized comics audience and a gang of publishers who didn’t much care for what they were publishing, a big difference from today.

- that a youth culture, music or whatever, that can’t throw out the previous order just for the sake of it, isn’t really the youth culture. If the grown-ups get it, it’s useless.

On the other hand, I also kinda wish people would stop psycho-analysing these cosplaying teenagers. Perhaps these kids want to rebel against their parents by finding a different form of self-expression, perhaps they’re thrilled by the cultural implications of Japanese popular culture transmuting into a different form in America… or perhaps they just like the bright colours, the beautiful art and pretty clothing.

I say so because when I was a teenager and running around with the DragonBall Z and Saint Seiya crowd, I didn’t care what my parents were doing when they were teens. They were Beatles fans, but did I even know anything about “The Bittles”? [insert vague ideas of black and white television, stupid trousers and goofy hairstyles here] As far as I was concerned, my old-fogey parents had never even been teenagers. So if I was cosplaying as SailorMoon, it certainly wasn’t because I had any understanding of the world before 1980. In fact, the world didn’t even exist before 1980.

So I wouldn’t worry about teenagers not knowing anything about Tezuka - I didn’t know anything about Tezuka until I was in my late teens either. Retrospection seems to be something you do when you’re no longer in High School. I think this generation of teens will grow up in the next 5 years to demand deeper and more thought-provoking entertainment, while their younger siblings will fill the slot they’re filling now.

And that is my 2 cents.

Perhaps then they would have been ahead of the upswing that occurred in the last few years where conventions are hitting record numbers across the board and more are popping up not just in large towns but small towns as well with no end to the demand for them. Other genre conventions I have heard are hitting some what of a plateau in their demographics, anime keeps getting younger and younger (and remains a fairly affordable entertainment venue to attend.)

As you said, anime and manga hits a demographic that they ignored, perhaps alienated or just didn’t get. I happen to be in one of those demographics. Left comic book stores for many years and only returned recently because a local one happened to stock a huge component of manga.

To be honest, I almost think it’s too late for Marvel and DC to really get back into the game. While I think CMX (affiliated with DC) actually has picked up good pieces, I think Tokyopop and Viz have crowded them out. The big publishers like Del Rey are going to line up the other stuff as well ( and made excellent choices).

Anyways, thanks for putting up the report. Only one question. “Mainstream” refers to who?

For teenagers, anime is mainstream.

I now create graphic Novels with David Boller in a kinda Disney/Japanese animation influenced way. Finally, subjects we can write and illustrate IN DETAIL, fantasy, metaphysical, spiritual, coming of age and all without being categorized in the underground, self published independent genre. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE INDEPENDENT WORKS but I’m sure that the audience I am reaching for rarely picks up underground/independent work. Some do but when I mention names the kids, for the most ,are part clueless.

I must admit, I am not the avid Superhero comic reader…I did love Christopher Reeves when I was a kid tho. When I ask the kids today ’bout the superheros, they all say the same thing…WOW, SIPDEY KICKS ASS! Kicking ass being the motivation for WATCHINHG the movies not reading the books. Manga and Anime touch on real life situations, dreams wants, struggles and desires that the younger gen can related to. More than

“You killed my mother, father, lover, wife dog now I want revenge OUCH! Oh no a crazed mouse just bit me and endowed me with super cheese eating skills and the ability to crawl through walls! Now I can seek revenge!”

Please don’t misinterpret me! I already stated that I do not read Superhero books, it kinda seemed like the same story over and over (I do watch the movies tho)…subtle change in the details of the superhero story but much simpler storytelling. Today’s Manga are sooooo complex, emotional, spiritual and really in depth character/story development omg and the conflict!!!

The costume thing…I can speak for myself and say that personally, I wish everyday were Halloween! But I certainly can see why a kid would love to imagine themselves as a larger that life fantastic character. Most of those characters (Manga/Anime) have traits, characteristics, wants and desires, emotional struggles and need to belong…they do, be and create something so much larger than their life and its circumstances.

I agree w/ Heidi…Lots of research to figure out (maybe not) the psychological reasons for the Gothic Lolitia dress, but throw in the psychological reasons for the need to blend in, be the same, suppress individuality in the everyday world, probably a lot more interesting findings there…but then again, imagination in youth and spirit and then having the choice between wearing cheap jeans and cruddy tops made in china herd clothing OR wearing unique, elaborate, hand crafted, fantastically beautiful costumes with flowing lace, leather, ruffles and more…Hmmm, maybe it’s just as simple as it looks pretty/cool and it’s different.

when I was younger I used to wish that people would dye their hair yellow, green, blue, violet…my mother said oh no, people would stare, yet as a kid I thought well, they wear these colors on eyes. lips and bodies, whats the difference?

I am young, in spirit as well as physical age and I am and will always be lifted when I see colorful, different people in “Everyday Life”.

Then again going back to why wear Gothic Lolita thing…maybe it’s because the whole manga/anime scene is relatively new here…but i do know it’s here to stay.

I’m with Ed Sizemore on the rock’n'roll comparison, and would take it further. Rock’n'roll was the result of white kids embracing the music and tropes that had been around for years in US black R&B. The parallels to manga and its tropes from Japanese popular culture are obvious to me. Re “Tell me Ike Turner wasn’t an angry man”: Tell me that Buddy Holly *was* one!

As a 46-year-old who loved both silver-age mainstream comics *and* Speed Racer and Astro Boy as a kid (as well as the indie comics explosion *and* the First Comics “Lone Wolf $ Cub” reprints in the ’80s), I’m delighted that the manga/anime thing has taken off in this country. My 7-year-old decided to wear blue this morning in order to better be Sailor Mercury when she and her friends play Sailor Moon at recess.

My anime and manga as Rock & Roll analogy is not based on the violence or sex content of these art forms. It’s based on anime as something unpresidented in American culture. Rock & Roll was a revolution in American music. It was perceived as such a significant break with older popular music that the older generations refused to accept it as music. Manga is also perceived as such a significant break from traditional American comics that the older generation doesn’t regard them as comics. A lot of the new otaku embrace manga and anime because it is something their parents don’t get. Anime and manga allow them to assert their independence in the same way Rock & Roll allowed the Baby Boomers to break with their parents. Part of the reason that most younger otaku want thier manga unflipped is because reading books ‘backward’ is part of deeping the gap between them and their parents. It part of the basis for why so many cosplay and pepper their language with Japanese phrases. By embracing various aspects of Japanese culture they are able to create their own culture that is distinct from the culture of their parents and grandparents. They like the fact that Japanese norms and American norms clash over the issues like nudity in comics. In the same that many white youths in the 50’s embrace aspects of Africian-American culture to shock their parents and assert their independence, so many young otaku today embrace Japanese culture for the same reason. I don’t say the Rock & Roll aspect of anime and manga is the sum total of its popularity, but it does play an important factor.

Marvel and DC needed to be there. Because those kids are not going to comic shops and wouldn’t even know where to find one in their town. This is an energy and fandom that they have no access to. Take a look at manga sales in the icv2 white paper, then compare it to the direct market. Compare the growth rates. If it isn’t making someone at those two nervous, they should. And even if they just went to the con and observed, Marvel and DC would learn a lesson far more viscerally than mere numbers can provide.

What is this, Logan’s Run?

Skeevy oldtimers in their 20s … skeevy pervs … ???

Huh ????

Edward, I agree that are multiple generations of anime fandom. I should have been clearer to say my observations are about the most current generation. I also agree that this current generation is very ahistorical in their consumption and appreciation of anime and manga. To further prove your point, Viz constantly states that they are printing Tezuka’s Phoenix at a loss. I can only hope that as this current generation matures their taste will broaden and eventually they will want to read the more histrocially significant manga.

The thing about subculture fashions is that they tend to become self-perpetuating once they reach a critical mass, and at that point they’re no longer “about” anything other than themselves. Goth-loli is about goth-loli. Punk is about punk. It is what it is; it doesn’t signify anything other than “I belong to this tribe”.

Huh? Isn’t it great that it’s actually possible to get *away* from the mainstream?

My wife and I compare the Star Wars and anime cosplayers to Revolutionary War or Civil War re-enactors. Some of those guys spend a scary amount of time to be accurate, but if you spend any time with one, it’s hard not to get a little caught up in their passion. We bought a lot more manga and anime than we were expecting to. They also have a remarkably low barrier to entry (you just have to love the stuff) and a remarkably high one as well (asking who someone is dressed as is a good way to catch a know-it-all teenaged sneer more often than not). But I think you’re right — they come off as generally good kids.

Anime and manga companies also seem a lot better geared for creating and sustaining their audience than the American animation and comics industries are.

After looking over the show, I think there’s also at least 3 distinct generations of anime fans, and possibly 4. The first are the ones who picked up Speed Racer, Astro Boy, and Ultraman when they were aired (and when they were just “cartoons from Japan”). The next ones were people like me, who got Battle of the Planets, Star Blazers, and maybe the start of Voltron. I’m not sure if you could argue that there’s a Power Rangers and Pokemon generation. Now we’re going through the Naruto generation.

I don’t think any of these fandoms have any really strong ties to each other. The kind of people who read and post on this blog, maybe, but for the most part, there are extremely few people who cut across all those generations, even though we’re calling it all “anime.” Peter Fernandez and Corinne Orr attracted some very hardcore fans, but the Tokyopop Stage audience seemed pretty under-populated for their panel. I don’t think the Naruto generation has any great awareness of who Osamu Tezuka is, which to me is like not knowing or caring what Walt Disney did.

I got some confirmation of this at the Anime Industry panel when they said that there are some perennial classics, but for the most part it’s a “what have you done for me lately” driven audience, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. I don’t have any great sense of how much the American moviegoing audience will appreciate stuff on Turner Classic Movies, either, but it makes the whole thing seem like a hardcore fad for some reason.

I think where adults have Burning Man and the SCA and Ren Faires (all of which are “fringe” activities, mind), this current crop of teens has a very mainstream-approved outlet for those urges. I think it’s really cool.

We’ve discussed this–I’ll rarely turn down an excuse to put on a funny costume and run around. I enjoy the alternate reality it creates. I missed NYAF because I was participating in Santacon. I enjoyed running around Manhattan dressed as “Pirate Santa,” and relishing the confused and amused looks by tourists, and the bizarre joy of being part of something so huge and weird.

It all comes from the same impulse, I think, and it’s really neat to see it being more accepted.

I’m skeevy, yes, but oldtimer? Ouch.

My impression as an older Otaku (I’m 40) is that anime and manga are the new Rock & Roll. Anime and manga represent new forms of expression for teens and young adults. Forms that were not available to their parents. There really aren’t any forms of self exploration left in the West that haven’t been well trod by either our generation or by our parents. So there is the excitement of unexplored territory and the Japanese society aspect of it is essential. In the same way Rock & Roll, and the culture surrounding it, represented a radical break from the WWII generation, so the Otaku culture represents a radical break from the Baby Boomer culture. The more that mainstream American culture shakes their head in confusion the more it fuels the passion of younger Otaku. The Baby Boomers are now getting to see what it is like to be on the other side of the generation gap. I think this explains, in part, the young age and energy you see among Otaku. I love your observations and hope you make to a few more anime conventions.