Everytime I see anything that says it was written or co-written by Alex Ross, I remember what the great Alex Toth said about guys who could paint a pretty picture but can’t tell a story. If Ross wasn’t who Toth was referring to, he’s certainly a member of the club. Ross shore does paint a purty pickture, but his story telling is about as substantial as a fart.

I believe there were 3 variants to the first issue, an ash one, a jason one and a freddy one as listed in Wizard.

I wonder if being Vertigo would help. I can’t imagine anybody NOT buying it because if was Vertigo that’s buying it now and maybe a few more would pick it up because it IS Vertigo.

I love the idea of a seperate “beachhead” of comics like that. A monthly Sgt. Rock. Maybe a series of Mini-Series rotating between Bat Lash and Nathaniel Dusk or even a House of Mystery style book or a Strange Adventures type.

I really wish there was some kind of “sampler” style TPB. Similar to what Vertigo did several years back where they printed the first issues of several series in a cheap TPB. DC could reprint some recent issues in a cheap newsprint TPB that would allow titles like this to get some more exposure.

Mike Nielsen

Like Mike, I wonder if the self-contained nature of the stories helps or hurts the book. I love it, but at the same time, each issue is satisfying in and of itself — and I wonder if satisfaction works against periodical sales. (I’m shooting myself in the foot, saying that, I know.)

While Jonah Hex is always *in* my pile of comics, it’s rarely on the top, because I never need to know what happens *next* — I just need to know what happens *this time*, which is a different feeling.

It’s completely impractical (and certainly beyond your control), but it might help to expand the mini line a little — establish a beachhead of non-superhero DCU books. Hex, Bat Lash, Sgt. Rock, maybe Nathaniel Dusk or another P.I. or spy. While it would be a significant investment, it would also change the perception of JH from a weird little offshoot of the DCU to the center of a mini-line.

On a more practical level, do you and Jimmy have a blog presence? It takes some time, but it might be worth doing to promote your books across the board. (I’m still sorry Monolith is gone.)

Rob

“For most Vertigo and some WildStorm titles, collection sales tend to be a significant factor, so the numbers for those books should be taken with a grain of salt as well.”

That basically covers it. It’s only in his analysis of individual titles and in these comments that he occasionally says things that rub people the wrong way. Personally, I am really glad Vertigo exists, since they’ve published almost all of my favorite books of the last 15 years, so I felt the need to contest some of those overly negative statements. But you’re right, Brian Wood is definitely the one most qualified to do so, so I’ll stop with the speculation.

It’s because it’s an American comic book. American comic books do that.

More seriously, take a look at, for instance, the 1 year comparisons list. Here are, excerpted, the *only* titles that climbed in sales compared to 1 year ago.

1-YEAR COMPARISONS
+ 59.3%: Robin
+ 41.3%: Nightwing
+ 37.6%: Legion of Super-Heroes
+ 30.4%: Green Lanern Corps
+ 25.1%: Green Arrow
+ 17.9%: Outsiders
+ 8.6%: Detective Comics

Robin, Nightwing and Detective Comics are up because of Ra’s Al Ghul crossover. Legion is up because of Shooter’s name. Green Lantern Corps is up because of the Sinestro Corps War. Outsiders and Green Arrow are up because of a recent relaunch creating buzz.

So if you want to up the sales, you’ll need to have a crossover, bring in a big name creator, or relaunch the book.

If you don’t do one of those, the book’s sales *will* slip month after month after month. Just like any other book. It’s just the way things are, like the sky is blue.

NONE of us knows what the economic model at Vertigo or DC is. I worked there, and I have no idea what it is today. A lot can change in 6 years. That said, I discourage speculation from the uninformed here. Brian Wood has a far better idea of what the economics are, and while he’s not exactly an impartial source, he is much closer to it than anyone who is not privy to Vertigo’s business plan.

I suspect there are many variables at play here. I have seen the Bookscan sales for many graphic novels, and some of the ones Vertigo publishes don’t sell for squat. Those books have by and large been cancelled. The ones that sell graphic novels in decent numbers (which I would define as a number not much different than the initial DM orders) are, by and large, being continued.

I have NO idea what the break even number for any kind of pamphlet is these days, or what the formula for profitability is.

But I do ask that those who DO NOT KNOW what the business models for the books they are talking about not act like they do.

Well, no, not at all.

First up, I don’t know what they “should” do.

Second, while Vertigo may release the majority of original material through periodicals at this time, they also frequently publish original graphic novels, so even if there were no periodicals, there’d still be original material.

Finally, even if Vertigo would stop producing original material altogether today, they’d probably still have a very healthy business a few years from now, thanks to their existing library.

My comment was just a blunt reference to the fact that, with Y: THE LAST MAN ending, Vertigo don’t have any strong periodical sellers left, outside of the two Willingham titles.

“[…] in the context of this discussion, “collection sales are very healthy” is more or less synonymous with ” collection sales “make up” for their low numbers”.”

In the examples you cite, I’m talking about the significance of collection sales for individual titles, not for Vertigo as a whole.

“I think it’s pretty obvious that I’m referring to Vertigo’s periodicals, and not to Vertigo as a whole, as you seem to have inferred. I don’t think there’s anything particularly ambiguous about my comment at all, really, so I’m not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that it says what it says.”

Yes, it’s obvious you’re referring to periodicals, and I never said otherwise. Combined with this generally accepted fact, which you mentioned in this very thread:

“It’s frequently said by people who should know that it’s not viable at this time for Vertigo - or for their creators, for that matter - to abandon the periodical market altogether and exclusively produce original graphic novels instead.”

your ‘call it a day’ quote basically says that Vertigo should stop publishing anything new. (If it doesn’t say that, please finally tell me what I misunderstood.) So saying that an imprint should stop publishing because of low sales is not suggesting “that Vertigo, as an imprint, is in any sort of trouble”? Again I ask, are you serious?

“Erm, where, exactly…?”

Here: ” “Declining periodical sales are (presumably) made up for by rising trade sales.”

There’s evidence that this is true for DMZ and 100 BULLETS, but I understand that those books are profitable as periodicals, anyway. There’s no evidence that it’s true for any other current Vertigo periodicals. ”

And here: “As far as increasing paperback sales making up for lapsing periodical sales is concerned, I took a look at the available data a while back, and I didn’t find much evidence for it, apart from books which are already profitable as periodicals, anyway.”

And here: “collection sales apparently aren’t quite significant enough to keep alive books that aren’t profitable as periodicals.”

And finally here: “What I’m disputing is the suggestion that, as a general rule, periodical sales are now meaningless for individual titles because collection sales “make up” for their low numbers.”

Again, you may interpret your statements any way you like, but to me (and I think to anybody else reading this thread, assuming such a person still exists beyond the two of us*) it is obvious that, in the context of this discussion, “collection sales are very healthy” is more or less synonymous with ” collection sales “make up” for their low numbers”.

*BTW, if nobody but us is reading this, does it strike you also as kind of funny that we are still having this discussion in English? Funny that two German guys are so passionate about American comic books, isn’t it?

What you’re referring to is this sentence I wrote: ‘If writer and Fables creator Bill Willingham decides to move on, at this stage, Vertigo might as well call it a day, as far as periodicals are concerned.’

I think it’s pretty obvious that I’m referring to Vertigo’s periodicals, and not to Vertigo as a whole, as you seem to have inferred. I don’t think there’s anything particularly ambiguous about my comment at all, really, so I’m not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that it says what it says.

“Now you are saying that you “never disputed the notion that their overall graphic novel and collection sales are very healthy” which is a 180-degree-turn if I ever saw one, since that is exactly what you have been doing for months and numerous times in this thread.”

Erm, where, exactly…?

You’re misremembering, Heinz. Here’s a link to the appropriate post:
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/09/26/dc-month-to-month-sales-august-2007/#comment-443276

That said, I’ve never suggested that Vertigo, as an imprint, is in any sort of trouble, and I’ve never disputed the notion that their overall graphic novel and collection sales are very healthy, either. So, to be honest, I’m still not quite sure what your point is.

What I’ve been talking about is the sharp decline in Vertigo’s periodical sales, their increasing inability to produce viable new series and the possible long-term consequences of that trend, should it continue.

You must be thinking of some other guy named Heinz, since I didn’t say anything resembling that.

“Besides, Vertigo’s periodical line was pretty diverse five years ago, too.”

Of course. The point is that now it is even more diverse.

Five years ago (June 03 cover-date): eight monthly books, three of those part of the traditional ‘Vertigo universe’ (Hellblazer, Hunter, Lucifer), that leaves five monthly books with non-VU, original concepts.

Today (June 08 cover-date, latest Previews): thirteen monthly books, two VU (Hellblazer, Un-Men), eleven original concepts.

Can we agree that eleven is more than five? Do you really, seriously disagree that a publisher giving more new, untested concepts a try is a healthy publisher? Do you see nothing positive in the fact that there are now twice as many books where creators can develop their own ideas instead of writing characters others created? Since DC is a business it seems obvious that all these books are profitable, otherwise they wouldn’t keep adding new books to their line. If some of them aren’t profitable enough to run for more than two or three years, where’s the problem? Is there any creative business where everything is a hit?

“What I’m disputing is the suggestion that, as a general rule, periodical sales are now meaningless for individual titles because collection sales “make up” for their low numbers. That’s plainly not true, because the Vertigo books likely to get cancelled are still the ones at the tail-end of the charts.”

There’s such an incredible leap of logic between those two sentences I hardly know where to begin. Of course, as long as periodicals and trades sell to roughly the same audience, what’s popular in one format will be more or less popular in the other (though there is also the bookstore audience to consider, which might be a different demographic). Of course, given the usual decline, a low-selling book will eventually be cancelled, though the precision with which you can predict this by looking at periodical numbers alone is rapidly shrinking, as proven by the fact that Crossing Midnight lasted a lot longer than could be expected. However, all this is beside the point. So low-selling books get cancelled eventually? So what? As I said before, Vertigo books cancelled due to low sales has been part of the imprint’s reality since it exists. Why should this be reason for concern all of a sudden?

What actually prompted you to talk about Vertigo’s troubles (though your statements have varied wildly, a few months ago you were suggesting they ‘call it a day’, whatever that means, now you’re down to worrying about their long-term health) wasn’t the fact that some books get cancelled after a few years, but rather the fact that their periodical sales have decreased across the board, as shown in the ‘Average Sales per Title’ four-year-comparison. This is what I’m talking about when I say that I believe that rising trade sales make up for decreasing periodical sales, as supported by lots of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence, and by pretty much everything Brian, as an informed insider, says. And this idea certainly doesn’t get disproven by the fact that some books still get cancelled. It would be ridiculous to assume that every single trade Vertigo publishes sells so great that no book has to get cancelled ever. It is, however, reasonable to assume that the trades sell good enough to make up for the periodical sales difference between now and a few years ago. It is reasonable to assume that trade sales allow books that sell extremely low as periodicals to exist for two or three years instead of getting cancelled right away, as books selling this low as periodicals would have been a few years ago (see Trigger). That many new books are cancelled after two or three years is as much a part of Vertigo now as it was five years ago (see American Century, Codename Knockout, Crusades, Hunter) and thus no cause for concern.

Just some thoughts on the Hex thing that I didn’t see from the other comments (which I admittedly skimmed).

I wonder if the self-contained story is hurting? I know when I pick up my books, Jonah is never a book I’m thinking “I gotta read this when I get home to find out the resolution of X”. So I wonder if there are buyers out there that just buy the occasional issue whenever they have a little extra to spend, knowing that it will be a self-contained issue.

Hex’s stories were self-contained in the Weird Western days and early on in the Jonah Hex title but toward the middle of the run we began to get subplots that ran thru the book, slowly building over time. Is it possible that things like that would keep people coming back every month instead of picking one up every 4 months or whatever.

Another thing that hurts a book like this, in my opinion, is that we don’t have and cross-promotion anymore. Not talking about in-house advertising as much as things like the old Best of DC Digests. I remember I really became a Hex fan after reading a story in the Years Best issue, where they reprinted various stories from the last year or so, claiming them to be the “best”. Items like that caused lots of us to read things that we wouldn’t normally. Not that the digests are neccesarrily the right thing now, but something that gets the story in front of more poeple so they can discover the character. I guess now-days it would be a “year’s best” TPB or something along those lines.

Glad to hear the book is safe for now. I’ve been a fan of Hex for years and am happy to be able to buy it monthly again. Great work.

Mike Nielsen

Again: I believe you. But I understand that DMZ is profitable as a periodical, so that example doesn’t support the notion that periodical sales are meaningless. I’m not disputing the suggestion that Vertigo’s overall graphic novel sales have come to outweigh their overall periodical sales. What I’m disputing is the suggestion that, as a general rule, periodical sales are now meaningless for individual titles because collection sales “make up” for their low numbers. That’s plainly not true, because the Vertigo books likely to get cancelled are still the ones at the tail-end of the charts.

“Another blunt statement that really isn’t supported by anything approaching fact. Keep an eye on yer Previews, son.”

Well, the statement is supported by creators saying that it’s not viable for Vertigo to switch to a different business model, abandon the monthlies altogether and exclusively do original graphic novels instead, because the monthly is needed as a loss-leader, both by the publisher and the creators.

Are you saying that’s not true, then?

There is a larger point here, that of the assumption that Vertigo trades exist to help pay for the monthly books, which I think is false. Those canceled books, the trades still exist and will keep selling, and long after the dust settles and people forget about the details of the monthly sales drama, they will simply be part of DC’s back catalog, just like all the others.

“it’s not a viable option for them to switch to original graphic novels at this time.”

Another blunt statement that really isn’t supported by anything approaching fact. Keep an eye on yer Previews, son.

bri

Also, I think it’s worth pointing out again that I don’t doubt Vertigo, as a whole, is doing very well right now. It may well be doing better than ever. What I’m also seeing, however, is that, when it comes down to individual series, collection sales apparently aren’t quite significant enough to keep alive books that aren’t profitable as periodicals.

Collection sales didn’t save DEADMAN or TESTAMENT or AMERICAN VIRGIN or CROSSING MIDNIGHT or THE EXTERMINATORS. And what do these books have in common? Well, they’re at the bottom end of the periodical sales charts, and they’re at the bottom end of the first-month paperback sales charts. So - presuming that’s not just an amazing coincidence - I’d say those charts, despite just being part of the picture, and despite all their well-documented limitations, still appear to be a pretty good indicator for what works and what doesn’t.

As soon as that stops being true, I’ll be more than happy to acknowledge it, but, again, there’s just no evidence for it right now.

Based on all that - and this is a separate point, mind you - I do think it’s legitimate to worry about Vertigo’s health in the long-term: They’re having an increasingly hard time producing viable periodicals, and it’s not a viable option for them to switch to original graphic novels at this time. That’s bound to become a problem at some point down the road, if Vertigo wants to continue publishing as much new material as they have been so far.

Looking at initials only on TRADES is even less likely to help you since the vast majority of trades sales happen over time, as opposed to monthlies where the bulk of it is up front. I’ve posted my numbers that prove that, and do you really think that the 4700 sales you have down in your analysis for Y THE LAST MAN v1 represent any sense of reality? BKV said in a recent Newsarama article that book’s gone through seven printings and at least six editions in foreign languages. That’s just one example. It’s a pretty far cry from “not 100% exact”.

Between that and my numbers (I have others but they aren’t my books so I can’t share) its pretty clear that trade sales are growing even where monthlies aren’t, far, far beyond just “making up for them”. I think common sense can tell us that series like TESTAMENT and AV, which are collected, will continue to sell in the months and years to come, especially when new series by those same creators appear to help drive sales. That’s just how it works. This is the industry we have now. Vertigo monthly numbers, already pretty secondary in the big picture, are soon completely made irrelevant.

There isn’t much evidence in the form of lists that we can all pore over, no, and I doubt there ever will be. But there are other kinds of evidence that should at least be enough to prevent us from dismissing the notion out of hand. Focusing myopically on this one incomplete source of information and then pronouncing a diagnosis on such a complex situation doesn’t help anyone, really.

I’ll keep an eye out on Comiks Debris for the inevitable response posting.

bri

As far as increasing paperback sales making up for lapsing periodical sales is concerned, I took a look at the available data a while back, and I didn’t find much evidence for it, apart from books which are already profitable as periodicals, anyway. Here’s a link, in case you’re interested:
http://comiksdebris.blogspot.com/2007/11/collection-business.html

CROSSING MIDNIGHT and (presumably) THE EXTERMINATORS have since been cancelled, but I think the gist of what I said still applies.

And while I appreciate Brian Wood’s willingness to share his sales information (I assume that’s who you’re referring to, although I don’t think he literally works at DC), the information he provides sometimes doesn’t really make sense.

We know, for example, that the estimates we have aren’t exactly on target - Brian himself has pointed that out, for that matter. But now, oddly, as Brian Hibbs points out, he says that the estimate for NORTHLANDERS #1 is an exact match with the real number, minus the variant cover edition, which seems rather unlikely. So that information is anecdotal and contradicting at best, and I’m highly reluctant to take it at face value.

I’d rather stick to the more systematic data provided by Diamond and ICv2.com. That data has its own limitations, but at least we know what those limitations are, and we know that the data itself is internally consistent and fairly reliable, and has been so for years now, even if it’s not 100% exact.

Whether it’s crucial or not (And obviously you could only know for sure if you had access to all their sales data and business plans, so that statement is nonsense) is irrelevant, since they currently have five books that fit the bill: three that are going strong after six years or more and two new ones that are currently successful enough to go on as long as they want to.

“Unfortunately, Vertigo’s success rate has sharply declined over the last few years…”

10 years ago: four long-running books, one of those was cancelled shortly after (Sandman Mystery Theatre).

5 years ago: three long-running books, same as now (Y and Fables had just started).

The success rate has only declined because they have expanded their line and have started experimenting with material that covers more styles and genres than ever before. It seems obvious to me that this is a sign of health and confidence.

“There’s no evidence that it’s true for any other current Vertigo periodicals.”

Another nonsensical statement, since there is actually lots of evidence, as has been discussed at length, for example in this very thread by someone who actually works there. The fact that you choose to ignore all this evidence does not exactly give you credence as an unbiased analyst, to put it mildly.

JIMMY

You might as well ask why the direct market is the way it is? How many titles in the direct market don’t experience a general downward trend? The only things that seem to create sales spikes are “events,” variant covers or complete changes in creative teams.

Also, Jonah Hex is a really cool book. Best Western title out there easily. And Brian Wood is doing some really good stuff all over the map, Nordic or otherwise. Thanks for the Booster Gold love too.

JK

The second thing is that there is competition in this niche genre, including Lone Ranger, a higher profile character than Jonah Hex to non-DC customers, and several “Supernatural Westerns” as well.

I would be really interested to see how the current series compares to previous Hex series in relation to the rest of the DCU line.

If you doubled the size of the book, the price would have to be $6, so people would decide to not buy it because it cost too much, even if the page count of the story was more than doubled. That’s just the way people are.

It’s not preferable, it’s crucial. And, at present, you need viable periodicals first to expand that library. Unfortunately, Vertigo’s success rate has sharply declined over the last few years, where those are concerned, even while the overall market has improved.

“Declining periodical sales are (presumably) made up for by rising trade sales.”

There’s evidence that this is true for DMZ and 100 BULLETS, but I understand that those books are profitable as periodicals, anyway. There’s no evidence that it’s true for any other current Vertigo periodicals.

JIMMY

I’m not sure this is of any help, but thought I’d say I’m a big Jonah fan back from the days of WWT, and when I saw the new book come out I thought “Great!”

THEN I remembered “HEX”, and then I thought, “Oh well… it’ll never last in this day and age. A western?!” Too much thinking going on, I realize, but true anyway!

Luckily, I read on a board about a year ago about how good the book was, and picked up the first trade. LOVED LOVED LOVED it! I’ve since bought the other two and am anxiously awaiting Only the Good Die Young.

Finally, the point: I am one of the growing number that go for the trades only, so I would think that the people that have stopped buying the monthly have migrated over to the collections. I have no idea of the numbers on those, but you say they are the “saving grace” so I can only assume they are doing well. I know I have spread the word to those I know and indeed I have added at least two to the trade audience.

So does this commentary add anything to the growing “how can we collect what we can’t sell in the first place” question? No, unfortunately! But I just wanted to say we’re behind you certainly but that sadly the monthly buyers are on a slow decline, so what to do??

Keep it up and good luck!

p.s. Not your arena, but the answer to the Flash debacle: GET RID OF THE FAMILY!! Or, keep the family, put them on a slow boat to wherever and bring back Barry!!!