Comments on: Dave Sim responds http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/ The News Blog of Comics Culture Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:35:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Peter Krause http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1253165 Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:14:23 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1253165 Well, Gene---is it really one-percent? I fit very well into that mode. Great wife, excels at her job, makes more money than me. (And if she was male, she might be making even more!) And I guess you and I won't be able to agree on the zero-sum thing, as my previous statement made clear. If you hire talented people--whatever gender--there is no clear one-to-one ratio on available jobs. The ultimate "sum" is that we all benefit by casting as wide a net as possible. Well, Gene—is it really one-percent?

I fit very well into that mode. Great wife, excels at her job, makes more money than me.

(And if she was male, she might be making even more!)

And I guess you and I won’t be able to agree on the zero-sum thing, as my previous statement made clear. If you hire talented people–whatever gender–there is no clear one-to-one ratio on available jobs. The ultimate “sum” is that we all benefit by casting as wide a net as possible.

]]> by: gene phillips http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1239573 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:46:28 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1239573 Peter, Sure, our hypothetical one-percenter could have a wife who works, brings in income (more than him, perhaps), and who excels at her job. But it's still a zero-sum game if Woman X gets the job he wants. There's any number of variables one can bring in, but the basic schema remains true. On at least one occasion, Sim has stated that he's not opposed to women entering the workplace (for your assignment, class, see Paglia's "No Law in the Arena" and write 100 words drawing comparisons), as long as they abide by the "hard knocks" of the workplace. I *assume* that he thinks most women can't take those hard knocks and that therefore they (and society) would be better off staying home. I wouldn't be surprised if he contradicts this stance somewhere else, though I give him props for trying to stay consistent within his own suppositions. Peter,
Sure, our hypothetical one-percenter could have a wife who works, brings in income (more than him, perhaps), and who excels at her job.

But it’s still a zero-sum game if Woman X gets the job he wants. There’s any number of variables one can bring in, but the basic schema remains true.

On at least one occasion, Sim has stated that he’s not opposed to women entering the workplace (for your assignment, class, see Paglia’s “No Law in the Arena” and write 100 words drawing comparisons), as long as they abide by the “hard knocks” of the workplace. I *assume* that he thinks most women can’t take those hard knocks and that therefore they (and society) would be better off staying home. I wouldn’t be surprised if he contradicts this stance somewhere else, though I give him props for trying to stay consistent within his own suppositions.

]]> by: BradyDale http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1239402 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:17:42 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1239402 He rips on women all the time. What the hell is he even talking about? He's got no self-awareness left. Once again: I am a fan. I just read FLIGHT last week. I've just about read all the phone books up to the point where I started buying the floppies every month in the mid-90s. He rips on women all the time. What the hell is he even talking about? He’s got no self-awareness left.

Once again: I am a fan. I just read FLIGHT last week. I’ve just about read all the phone books up to the point where I started buying the floppies every month in the mid-90s.

]]> by: Unpopular http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1237322 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:58:32 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1237322 Jack Fear, what I meant by right track was that he was still within realm of a reasonable argument. Then he called Heidi a misandrist, which she CLEARLY is not. It's at that point I decided not to give a damn about Dave Sim's views on certain subjects henceforth. He became hypocritical without much effort with just the first line of the last paragraph. That's pretty much all I was going for... and you should be pleased because I had previously been in the Dave-Sim-isn't-a-big-meanie camp. Jack Fear, what I meant by right track was that he was still within realm of a reasonable argument. Then he called Heidi a misandrist, which she CLEARLY is not. It’s at that point I decided not to give a damn about Dave Sim’s views on certain subjects henceforth. He became hypocritical without much effort with just the first line of the last paragraph. That’s pretty much all I was going for… and you should be pleased because I had previously been in the Dave-Sim-isn’t-a-big-meanie camp.

]]> by: Seth Hollander http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1236780 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:54:29 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1236780 Well, Jack, men and women often are in an adversarial paradigm, IMO. I think any sharing situation revolves around a finite quantity, whether we're talking about resources, opportunities, land, whatever. There is always some limiting factor in the picture that means somebody can't have everything at the same time as someone else has everything. When I referred to "reduc(ing) the status of the dominant group", I meant realities such as this (the following example is from my life and cutely reverses the genders- it's actually the anti-libbers' nightmare!): Back in the 90s my girlfriend and I broke up. A year previous, she wanted to break up but I worked my way through it BECAUSE I COULDN'T AFFORD MY OWN APARTMENT! The next year, I was making enough money to not feel the financial need to challenge the idea of breaking up. Reverse the genders of the people in my example and it becomes an example of what I mean. I think most anti-feminists want the power to "keep" women and control their relationships with women. If a woman doesn't have the power to get money on her own, it is hard for her to leave a relationship or even live as an adult without a relationship. In traditional pre-lib societies females started life as daughters subservient to fathers, and became wives subservient to husbands. Throughout their lives, their individual security and power was derived from their individual subserviences to men. As to your statements about the mutual benefits of gender equality, I'm happy to agree with you. And I do think gender equality or the elimination of gender-centric views is good for our species. But I do believe males are losing power as a consequence of female liberation. I think our "losing power" is for a good cause, and that having that power was unjust. And I think that some other males don't want to lose that power and are doing what they can to try to keep it. They're not crazy or stupid, they're just nasty and selfish. I don't want to be adversarial with you, I do want to convince you that the Dave Sims of the world have a reason to act like they do and say what they say... Well, Jack, men and women often are in an adversarial paradigm, IMO. I think any sharing situation revolves around a finite quantity, whether we’re talking about resources, opportunities, land, whatever. There is always some limiting factor in the picture that means somebody can’t have everything at the same time as someone else has everything.
When I referred to “reduc(ing) the status of the dominant group”, I meant realities such as this (the following example is from my life and cutely reverses the genders- it’s actually the anti-libbers’ nightmare!): Back in the 90s my girlfriend and I broke up. A year previous, she wanted to break up but I worked my way through it BECAUSE I COULDN’T AFFORD MY OWN APARTMENT! The next year, I was making enough money to not feel the financial need to challenge the idea of breaking up.
Reverse the genders of the people in my example and it becomes an example of what I mean. I think most anti-feminists want the power to “keep” women and control their relationships with women. If a woman doesn’t have the power to get money on her own, it is hard for her to leave a relationship or even live as an adult without a relationship. In traditional pre-lib societies females started life as daughters subservient to fathers, and became wives subservient to husbands. Throughout their lives, their individual security and power was derived from their individual subserviences to men.
As to your statements about the mutual benefits of gender equality, I’m happy to agree with you. And I do think gender equality or the elimination of gender-centric views is good for our species.
But I do believe males are losing power as a consequence of female liberation. I think our “losing power” is for a good cause, and that having that power was unjust. And I think that some other males don’t want to lose that power and are doing what they can to try to keep it. They’re not crazy or stupid, they’re just nasty and selfish.
I don’t want to be adversarial with you, I do want to convince you that the Dave Sims of the world have a reason to act like they do and say what they say…

]]> by: Talon T M http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235411 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:55:41 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235411 I never sent any of Heidi's article to Dave...I'm guessing that someone else did. What I sent was some of the conversations going on about this on the YAHOO group, and Dave responded with that Heidi quote. I never sent any of Heidi’s article to Dave…I’m guessing that someone else did. What I sent was some of the conversations going on about this on the YAHOO group, and Dave responded with that Heidi quote.

]]> by: Allen http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235402 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:51:10 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235402 A-rod, it is okay...other than a faint attempt on your part to 'guide' my speech, I had no illusions that you intended humor. I eagerly await future exchanges when you surely will 'educate' me as to what issues exist, and which are those that I should embrace to your satisfaction. Toby, the only two comics entertainment blogs I read are written by women. Being male, I would attempt the argument that I already know what males think regarding comics and the like. I want to know what women think about the medium -- that might be a black mark against me, alas... A-rod, it is okay…other than a faint attempt on your part to ‘guide’ my speech, I had no illusions that you intended humor. I eagerly await future exchanges when you surely will ‘educate’ me as to what issues exist, and which are those that I should embrace to your satisfaction.

Toby, the only two comics entertainment blogs I read are written by women. Being male, I would attempt the argument that I already know what males think regarding comics and the like. I want to know what women think about the medium — that might be a black mark against me, alas…

]]> by: Alan Coil http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235143 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:01:39 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235143 Dave Sim doesn't read much of the internet, thus Talon has to prod Sim to respond to things he might otherwise never see. I wonder if Dave Sim sees the entire article that Heidi wrote, or just select parts cut-and-pasted into emails. And I wonder the same about Dave Sim's responses...are we seeing the entire email, or just parts that are selected to move an argument forward? Dave Sim doesn’t read much of the internet, thus Talon has to prod Sim to respond to things he might otherwise never see.

I wonder if Dave Sim sees the entire article that Heidi wrote, or just select parts cut-and-pasted into emails. And I wonder the same about Dave Sim’s responses…are we seeing the entire email, or just parts that are selected to move an argument forward?

]]> by: Peter Krause http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235084 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:47:10 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1235084 Heidi's a man? There go all my illusions..... Heidi’s a man?

There go all my illusions…..

]]> by: Toby http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234979 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:18:02 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234979 I love that every single comment here is by men. I love that every single comment here is by men.

]]> by: The Beat http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234803 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:39:56 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234803 Rick, the link was in there but I forgot to put a space between urls. It's readable now. Rick, the link was in there but I forgot to put a space between urls. It’s readable now.

]]> by: Talon T M http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234525 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:39:19 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234525 For the whole story: http://www.comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=217 For the whole story:

http://www.comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=217

]]> by: A-rod http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234274 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:37:49 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1234274 I apologize Allen, for my poor writing. I was merely trying to express what I believed the point of Heidi's original essay was and how Godwin's Law was as applicable as Murphy's , in my opinion. Once again, sorry I don't have a smug insult or pompous joke to follow up with. I apologize Allen, for my poor writing. I was merely trying to express what I believed the point of Heidi’s original essay was and how Godwin’s Law was as applicable as Murphy’s , in my opinion.

Once again, sorry I don’t have a smug insult or pompous joke to follow up with.

]]> by: Peter Krause http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233801 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:15:46 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233801 Gene, you conveniently leave out the theoretical woman's spouse...let's say she has a husband. Does he not gain from her employment? The household has more income! No "acceptable losses" there. And perhaps, she is brilliant! Her company soars, creating more jobs! The man who didn't get the job is hired as well! I could go on....but you get the picture. Gene, you conveniently leave out the theoretical woman’s spouse…let’s say she has a husband.

Does he not gain from her employment? The household has more income!

No “acceptable losses” there.

And perhaps, she is brilliant! Her company soars, creating more jobs! The man who didn’t get the job is hired as well!

I could go on….but you get the picture.

]]> by: Allen http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233334 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:55:18 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233334 A-rod, I merely tendered my opinion. BTW, I love your line, "There’s a contradiction there that doesn’t seem to make sense." I am still smiling over that. You had better run out and trademark that. A-rod,

I merely tendered my opinion.

BTW, I love your line, “There’s a contradiction there that doesn’t seem to make sense.”

I am still smiling over that. You had better run out and trademark that.

]]> by: gene phillips http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233284 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:47:52 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233284 Jack, I agree that a fair system is better for everyone. I'll even extend that to say that in order to make Ye Olde Grand Narrative of Emanicipation work, there's going to be times that one qualified person is going to lose out to another simply as a way of redressing old wrongs, and that IMO that's just a matter of karma coming around to be a chameleon (or something). But no matter what long-range POV one takes of the matter, for the person who doesn't get the job, it's still a zero sum game. It doesn't make any sense to pretend otherwise, no matter how many long-range justifications one puts out there. This is not to say that the original "old boy's network" wasn't just as much of a zero-sum game: in fact, it was more of one. The justifications for the Narrative of Emancipation are better, but it's not a perfect world and abuses will happen. To the extent that Heidi has said roughly-similar things ("old people's network"), hers too would be on the side of Universal Emanicipation, as I read her words here. I'm certainly more on her side than on Dave's (whether she wants me there or not), and I think Dave has based too much of his rhetoric on the "one percent doctrine." But it just doesn't make any sense to say, "No one loses." "Acceptable losses," maybe. Jack,
I agree that a fair system is better for everyone. I’ll even extend that to say that in order to make Ye Olde Grand Narrative of Emanicipation work, there’s going to be times that one qualified person is going to lose out to another simply as a way of redressing old wrongs, and that IMO that’s just a matter of karma coming around to be a chameleon (or something).

But no matter what long-range POV one takes of the matter, for the person who doesn’t get the job, it’s still a zero sum game. It doesn’t make any sense to pretend otherwise, no matter how many long-range justifications one puts out there. This is not to say that the original “old boy’s network” wasn’t just as much of a zero-sum game: in fact, it was more of one. The justifications for the Narrative of Emancipation are better, but it’s not a perfect world and abuses will happen.

To the extent that Heidi has said roughly-similar things (”old people’s network”), hers too would be on the side of Universal Emanicipation, as I read her words here. I’m certainly more on her side than on Dave’s (whether she wants me there or not), and I think Dave has based too much of his rhetoric on the “one percent doctrine.”

But it just doesn’t make any sense to say, “No one loses.” “Acceptable losses,” maybe.

]]> by: Jack Fear http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233032 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:02:43 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233032 <i>Generalities aren’t workable, on Dave’s side or Heidi’s.</I> Except when they're used to keep down <i>half the human race</i> out of fear that maybe, someday, one guy, somewhere, might be unjustly dismissed from his job if Those Damned Women are not stopped? This would be the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_Percent_Doctrine" rel="nofollow">one percent doctrine</a> at work, would it? Generalities aren’t workable, on Dave’s side or Heidi’s.

Except when they’re used to keep down half the human race out of fear that maybe, someday, one guy, somewhere, might be unjustly dismissed from his job if Those Damned Women are not stopped?

This would be the one percent doctrine at work, would it?

]]> by: The Beat http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233017 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:00:37 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1233017 What's "my side", here anyway? I'd love to know. Maybe the idea isn't to create ANY new network. Maybe there's a new "old <b>people's</b> network." Where they show Matlock and Murder She Wrote all the time. (that was a joke.) What’s “my side”, here anyway? I’d love to know.

Maybe the idea isn’t to create ANY new network. Maybe there’s a new “old people’s network.”

Where they show Matlock and Murder She Wrote all the time.

(that was a joke.)

]]> by: gene phillips http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1232965 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:51:37 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1232965 What "patently untrue?" If you're a member of the "old boy's network," you may stand to lose a job if the "new girl's network" gains hegemony. Maybe the girl who gets your job does so because you did your job badly. Or maybe she was brought in to fill a quota? Who knows? Every case is different. Generalities aren't workable, on Dave's side or Heidi's. What “patently untrue?”

If you’re a member of the “old boy’s network,” you may stand to lose a job if the “new girl’s network” gains hegemony.

Maybe the girl who gets your job does so because you did your job badly. Or maybe she was brought in to fill a quota? Who knows? Every case is different. Generalities aren’t workable, on Dave’s side or Heidi’s.

]]> by: gene phillips http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1232966 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:51:35 +0000 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/09/dave-sim-responds/#comment-1232966 What "patently untrue?" If you're a member of the "old boy's network," you may stand to lose a job if the "new girl's network" gains hegemony. Maybe the girl who gets your job does so because you did your job badly. Or maybe she was brought in to fill a quota? Who knows? Every case is different. Generalities aren't workable, on Dave's side or Heidi's. What “patently untrue?”

If you’re a member of the “old boy’s network,” you may stand to lose a job if the “new girl’s network” gains hegemony.

Maybe the girl who gets your job does so because you did your job badly. Or maybe she was brought in to fill a quota? Who knows? Every case is different. Generalities aren’t workable, on Dave’s side or Heidi’s.

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