Wait.. are you implying that I *didn’t* look up the definition of sexism or are you granting that I **DID** look it up and should look up another term? Because I pulled the definition I used directly from a dictionary, and where exactly did you get yours?

People should stop trying to make words mean what they want them to mean and use their proper definitions instead. It’s indicative of a population slowly growing increasingly dumb by the generation.

“Fred, you may think you’ve been scoring points.”

With whom? Clearly I’m the antagonist in this little story.

“I deliberately chose Power Girl as an example of a sexist character because she inarguably is”

It’s not inarguably if I can argue against it. I did. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make me wrong, smarty pants. Just because I don’t agree that she isn’t doesn’t make me right, either. However, it is far from inarguable.

“you went to the extreme of asserting that the word “sexism” means what you want it to mean, and nothing else.”

Try again. This time use a dictionary.

“Exactly what point are you trying to make?”

The points I MADE are as follows: The Beat should use more facts and fewer blanket accusations. Power Girl isn’t a “sexist” character nor is she really a sexualized depiction of a character (and I’ve already established that you disagree with this as is your right)–should all female comic book characters not possess breasts to prevent any hint at sexuality to avoid riling up the sexism crusaders? And finally, who gives a crap about comic book characters, we’re talking about sexism in the hiring practices of Marvel/DC.

Quoting a quote–”women in comix need to be provided with brains, complexity and character development in quality equal to or exceeding that of their appearances.”

This is so easy to tear apart with glee… I’ll try to restrain myself. First, why should the female characters be treated this way and with such care when the male characters aren’t? Since when is physical appearance indicative of equal or greater intelligence, complexity and character–especially in the real world? Are only the ugly female characters allowed to be stupid, simple, and shallow?

Characters serve the story. They’re not always mouthpieces and/or surrogate victims for the thoughts and opinions of their creators. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they’re just sad little chess pieces which don’t require the same protections actual people still need. The only people who give a crap about that stuff are the people waging gender/race/orientation wars on the fictional battlefields of storytelling. And a lot of times those wars are waged by people with comprehension impairments who can’t tell the difference between what happens in a story and what the person creating the story actually thinks and feels so they persecute the creators for it because it makes them feel special as if they’re actually doing something.

“Please stop pretending that your unsupported opinion is the law.”

How is it unsupported? Well, obviously it has no support here in the comments section of this blog post, but I didn’t see you trying to take this blog to task for not supporting it’s opinion either, and that’s a nice little bit of selective blindness. Do you think your opinion is supported because you provided a link to a film student’s rant which had comments from equally annoyed people who agreed with him? Are you meaning support as in agreement or support as in documentation? Are you willing to submit your own opinions to the same criteria? Seems to me that you’re the one who is “pretending that your unsupported [or even a supported one] opinion is the law.” Speaking of laws, if there are laws which should be followed–especially by this blog–it’s don’t make accusations without proof. Should the author(s) of this blog be subjected to your criteria as well? Seems to me that the original post is a prime example of “pretending that your unsupported opinion is [a fact]”. So quick to point fingers, yet so blind to who’s guilty.

The defense rests.

I do remember allegations of sexism in the industry from the late Kim Yale, which may’ve impacted how much she did for them. I think she deserves to be considered “noted.”

does anyone have any examples of any undeniably talented and genre appropriate women getting shut out of the “big two” in the last decade?

“Exactly what point are you trying to make? That you’re an angry 60-something white male who’s sour about too many things to count, including the state of society generally, and has too much time on his hands?”

I don’t think you’re the person to be lecturing anyone on ad hominem attacks.

“I thought I said that. Let me check. Yep, said that. Great minds think alike.”

Not quite. Emphasizing human contiguity with the animals reinforces Fred’s point, though maybe not to the extent he put it forth.

Exactly what point are you trying to make? That you’re an angry 60-something white male who’s sour about too many things to count, including the state of society generally, and has too much time on his hands?

The comments on the article, “The Objectification of Women in Graphic Novels” matter because the posters’ concerns match the concerns expressed here, and one female comics reader included the following in her comment:

“Clearly the medium needs more female contributors, editors, writers, etc. End the boys’ club. It’s not going to stop pigs like Miller from vomiting their bile all over the medium, but at least it’d provide a counterpoint to his (and others’) relentless woman-bashing. As well as providing an alternative for female (and socially sensitive male) fans. No matter who’s writing or illustrating, women in comix need to be provided with brains, complexity and character development in quality equal to or exceeding that of their appearances. I think the real problem is that women in comix are being presented first as sexy things and then as people.”

In addition to looking up the meaning of “sexism,” you also need to look up the meaning of “ad hominem,” as in “ad hominem argument.”

Please stop pretending that your unsupported opinion is the law.

SRS

Are too.

I’ve written a lot of responses in this section and it’s possible my following comment will be untrue, but I did not at any point say that “sexism…isn’t a problem”. I don’t work in the industry, so how the hell would I be able to state a fact to which I have no first-hand knowledge? I believe that all I have been doing is challenging your claim–and challenging others to question–that it IS.

“everyone who has actually WORKED in the industry”

based on what?! Eva Hopkins even used an example where she mentioned a friend in the industry who claimed with absolute certainty that it ISN’T. So, clearly that prevents you from using “everyone” in that sentence.

“shouldn’t you just maybe, maybe start at least questioning what they are saying?”

That’s exactly what I have been doing, but I think you meant I should question my own views (which you misrepresented). Actually, what I was really trying to do is maybe make you question your own posts so that this blog would stop using blanket statements ( like “There are many reasons for that, among them, yes, sexism of some kind”) without any supporting evidence. We, your readers, look to YOU for the information. All I ask is that it be accurate information with some sort of support (a truthful example with names removed).

Maybe I take blogs too seriously. If all they really are is a place for people to spout off about anything they want without the need for it to be truthful in the slightest, then I can do without them. Maybe I just take THIS blog too seriously because Heidi MacDonald is a highly respected person in the comics industry, and I have unreasonbly high expectations because of it. The thing is I WANT to support your scornful looks upon Marvel/DC for sexist hiring practices, but I’m not willing to do it merely because you say so. Unlike some people, I need proof before I accept something to be true. That has been the motive behind every single post I made in this thread.

Christopher Moonlight, you are absolutely no fun, sir. None whatsoever. Simply feeling the need to counterclaim “I’m not” really only proves your big dumb animalness. I’m on the side of truth, sir, and in my experience, men are big dumb animals (among other fun hyperbolic generalizations). Really… no fun at all. However, you often make excellent posts.

How about–

YOU aren’t, but your body IS????

I’m not being entirely frivolous.

If our actions (directed by the mind’s intentionality) separate us from the animals, then our bodies maintain our contiguity with the beasts, be they two-backed or otherwise–

I’ve very sure, I’m not. Fred, human beings are complex individuals (that’s me) who can make mistakes, or have poor judgment due to conflicts of facets, in these complexities. Altruism or greed, even evil are also factors. Our actions set us apart from the animals, not our biology.
To use “generalization and hyperbole” is the issue at hand. Saying you and all men are big dumb animals, is like throwing yourself (and all men) under a bus, to prove you’re on women’s side. It’s not true, and there’s no need for it. It’s a cop-out. Each human being, male or female, regardless of race or ethnic background, needs to be taken into account. Ultimately, it’s up to each individual to transcend all general aspects of themselves, and the adversities they garner. It is our responsibility as individuals, in fact, otherwise we are just playing the role of victim. Victim, Martyr, dumb animal, are all counter productive to humanity’s progression. Yes, slowly but surely, we are progressing. We need only keep our wits about us, and try to be responsible and fair.

So, I am not.

But Fred, when you keep saying that sexism in the industry isn’t a problem, yet everyone who has actually WORKED in the industry — including a man — says it is, shouldn’t you just maybe, maybe start at least questioning what they are saying?

I absolutely loved Alex di Campi’s Smoke. I would like to read more comics from her (that aren’t from Tokyopop) even though she seems to be quick to jump on the “sexism” bandwagon as well. She writes damn good comics, and that’s good enough for me.

I’m not. ”

Sure you are. I’m sure you’re also lots of other things as well, and being a big dumb animal doesn’t prevent you from also being an intelligent, magazine-producing robot.

Generalization and hyperbole can be our friends as well as our enemies. It all depends on who is making them and about what they are being made. I certainly don’t believe myself to be a big dumb animal, either.

I suppose it was too much to ask for you to view that comment in a non-literal fashion or even *gasp* an attempt at levity.

I’m not.

I’m not sure being female has anything to do with it. The two worlds seem to have not much crossover to begin with, for the most part. I myself find superheroes to be endlessly perverse and freakish and odd, and I don’t seem to get tired of them, conceptually. But I do have creator friends for whom they hold little interest at all, male and female.

It’s a fine point, but I do think it’s important to separate what issues actually are gender-related from those that are less so.

Gail

Nope–an actual definition of sexism from the now. Excuse me for thinking words mean what they actually mean.

“an unwillingness to consider the possibility that women [m]ight find the portrayals of comics heroines with their “ideal” bodies offensive.”

There is that possibility. Do these same women find actual women who fit that description “offensive” as well?

Men are big dumb animals. Why should women get offended when men draw women the way they want them to look? Women, if you come across men who actually expect you to look like a comic book character, tell them they are big dumb animals without a grip on reality, and don’t give them another second’s thought.

Steven, you seem to be trying to make a case for sexism in comics by mentioning a female character with large breasts and a costume which shows them off, and all I’m saying is that it doesn’t really hold up. I believe I’ve proven that to be the case, but you’re free to keep thinking otherwise.

“It may be comfortable to accept sexism in comics as the norm”

Comfortable for those who aren’t on the receiving end of it, but you have to have examples of actual sexism to rail against.

“your failure to cite corroborating opinions speaks volumes in this instance”

I’m no stranger to being the lone voice of reason. What was that? Oh, that was a majority of people reading that then laughing. Whatever, folks. But I’ll bite… corrorborating opinions about what? The meaning of the word sexism? That Power Girl isn’t a sexist depicition? All you need is reason and a dictionary for that.

“For an informed opinion”

That’s a stretch. He’s a film student, not a professor on women’s studies or anything.

“check out, for instance, http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=875 and the pertinent comments following the main text.”

I stuck to the main text, thanks. I wasn’t impressed. One can always find insults in compliments when insults are what one is looking for.

I think you have difficulty telling the difference between sexism in comics and the sexism in comics we’re all talking about. Good luck with that.

“it’s hardly unusual that observers of an industry are better positioned to see and speak about objectionable practices than are the people working in it”

Speak, maybe. See, no. Fear does make people stop themselves from speaking out, but only the victim (or perpetrator) can truly testify to intent and meaning.

What I don’t get is why people are so willing to accept that sexism is a given in the hiring practices of Marvel/DC on the basis of a blog post devoid of any actual evidence from a woman that hasn’t been employed by either company for years (it is years, isn’t it?). Boggles the mind.

BTW, it’s hardly unusual that observers of an industry are better positioned to see and speak about objectionable practices than are the people working in it, especially when the topics at issue are sexism, misogyny, and the like. Being willing to jeopardize one’s own livelihood is uncommon.

SRS

“Patty Jeres”

“Text not found”

Why has nobody mentioned Patty yet?

Y’all are absolutely correct; the reason most of us indie girls aren’t making it into the mainstream is often because we don’t have interest. I had a small window of opportunity to write female-targeted books for Marvel (pre-Minx), and I lost it. If I’d been 100% into the idea, I think I’d be writing for Marvel right now. I know I’m capable of doing it. But my heart wasn’t into it, and I lost the opportunity by not jumping on it.

Don’t get me wrong; in this economy I’d be happy to have steady work and write a Spiderman Loves Mary Jane-esque book for an established company. But I wouldn’t be happy doing it for the rest of my life - it wouldn’t be fulfilling. I’ll take real-life heroines like Courtney Crumrin, or my own character Jamie (the sexiest character in GWS is a chunky virgin), to tights-and-capes-clad superheroines any day.

By the way, I have to admit I’m tickled to read all these nice comments about me - I’m glad you enjoy my work so much!

Well, Steven, sexism means a belief that women are inferior to men (and several other definitions as well, but they don’t really apply). Power Girl is in no way inferior to any man exept her writers (if they’re men). So, that’s how I conclude that the character of Power Girl isn’t a sexist depiction. In addition, there are many different practical purposes for her particular costume, but I have no idea if they played a part in her creation because I didn’t create her. Maybe it was as simple as “let’s make a female superman and give her giant hooters”, but even still that doesn’t make it a sexist depiction.

and to continue for the fun of it, “I’ve seen people argue that superheroines’ portrayal isn’t sexist, that it’s just physical perfection for men and women both”

I would argue that comic book characters often represent the ideal physical attributes of each gender in the eyes of the creator. Most men don’t look like Captain America and most women don’t look like Power Girl. Seems pretty fair to me except that there is no real example of what a woman’s idea of physical perfection for men and women would be because most comic book characters were created by men. I would love to see what Amanda Conner and/or Nicola Scott’s ideal man and woman comic book characters would look like and I would like to see how they compare to the rest.

Anatomy is anatomy, and that’s where “good” comic book characters begin, typically. Human beings, on the other hand, exist in every variation on the anatomic scale.

“but that argument ignores the parts of a heroine’s body that are routinely emphasized.”

Emphasizing the sexual characteristics of a female character doesn’t make it a sexist depiction. Sexist depictions would be if female characters always needed rescuing by the male characters. I think what you’re getting at is SEXUALIZED characters, and for that there is no argument.

Excellent post by “gail” that really gets to the heart of the matter.

Eva Hopkins–”I got so feisty when I heard that bitching about sexism is irksome.”

To clarify, I only find bitching about hypothetical sexism irksome. Bitching about actual sexism is encouraged.

Jim Higgins–”She seems, to me, to just be saying that it seems to be a bit of a problem that there aren’t many more women writing Big 2 comics now than there were 20 years ago!”

If that’s all it was, I wouldn’t have been compelled to comment.

Has anyone mentioned how awesome Becky Cloonan is, yet? Marjane Satrapi? Jessica Abel? Chynna Clugston-Major? Linda Medley?

I am frankly amazed to hear guys talk about women and girls not really “being into superhero comics.” They are a minority, certainly not a large one, but they are definitely a significant one. I do think that there are a lot of super-guy titles that most women probably don’t read very much (I’m having a hard time thinking of women I’ve met who’ve been “Hulk” fans).

But I’ve met hundreds of women and girls over the past twenty years who were serious X-Men fans. If only 5% of Marvel and DC readers are female (a stat I heard about 15 or 18 years ago), I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that maybe 10% of X-Men readers have been and are female. The X-Books sell around 100,000 right now, so that makes 10,000 women or girl readers. They may not go home with a stack of books every Wednesday but they clearly, like all the ones I’ve met, like superhero comics. And 10,000 is a pretty big number considering what some of the guys above have said about there not being many out there. Add to that what Gail said above about what she sees and gets in terms of female fan attention at conventions and I hope we can bury this issue about “girls not liking superheroes” with a backhoe sometime later today.

When I’ve asked the women I’ve met why they like the X-Men they inevitably point out the fact that they like that there are a lot of female characters in the books, as well as the involved story lines and subplots. So why not try and get this female audience to read more super-people comics? How might you do this? Getting more women writing the comics is certainly a step in the right direction.

Heidi’s not making any big sweeping statements here, really. She seems, to me, to just be saying that it seems to be a bit of a problem that there aren’t many more women writing Big 2 comics now than there were 20 years ago! In a word — yikes! I also agree with what Gail says about reader reaction to women writers — the minds there seem quite open and not very concerned about gender. They’re more concerned about reading good stories and ones that they like. Where I’ve seen bias and/or consternation and concern about women in the comics business — is in the comics business itself.

I was also shocked at some of the statements above that said things like, “I think women creators are better off exploring different avenues” than superhero comics. What a blatant insult to women in general, to say that they aren’t *able* to write comics that will have a certain specific appeal. Of the few women who have had long track records writing for Marvel or DC, there are certainly examples of those who could and can do this: Louise Simonson (X-Factor), Ann Nocenti (Daredevil), Gail Simone (Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman, etc.) For my money, Gail is one of the most consistently good comics writers in the business right now.

Think about it: Women writers had to deal with this kind of bias for decades in the mystery and crime fiction world. Now, there’s loads of women writing in the genre, and plenty have done some extraordinary work, like Patricia Highsmith, Joyce Carol Oates, and Ruth Rendell. The sad thing about this regressive attitude is that I heard other editors at DC say similar things while I was there. So how can women be expected to get work writing superhero comics if there are editors who don’t even think they can do it?!?!

Finally, here are some other women editors who I don’t think have been mentioned:

Melonie Chadwick at Harris, Maureen McTigue at Harris and DC, Jennifer Lee at Vertigo and Marvel, and Cat Yronwode for many years back in the day at Eclipse.

That has to be my favorite line of this whole thread.

“would superhero fiction even exist without comics? How would a man and woman of comparable talent go about writing prose superhero fiction, where the sexist art wasn’t a factor?”

Before Superman (or even the Phantom) appeared, there were some two dozen oddly-garbed (if not longjohned) crimefighters with wild names like the Shadow, Doc Savage, the Spider, the Golden Amazon (possible inspiration for Wonder Woman), the Moon Man, etc. You can dismiss them as irrelevant if you like but you’d have to be blind not to see the similarities. Their stories may or may not have been sexist but they did quite well without “sexist art.”

Also:

“A hero’s muscularity or bare midriff doesn’t make him sexually desirable”

Right; that’s why there are zero covers of women’s romance fiction paperbacks that feature men with bared, ripped chests (usually with no hair– hope the models don’t have to exfoliate!)

“The people producing the porn undoubtedly read comics. Superjizz’s “Rape of. . .” trilogy actually did better at characterizing the Black Cat, Scarlet Witch, and Black Widow, than, say, Bendis has ever done”

I might not be a huge fan of Bendis but that sounds like an absurd statement. In what way are Superjizz’s characterizations superior?

Gail: agreed; like I said above, sexism sucks, but I think it’s getting better: that sums it up IMO. (I got so feisty when I heard that bitching about sexism is irksome. ) Also, thanks for the list of names of great new female mainstream talents. I’m gonna check that out. That is good news indeed. Our lines tend to have more women too, but we’re in a weird indie-but-pinupy position.